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General :
The Turing Test

Topic is Sleeping.
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 2:07 AM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

As someone whose WS did not have sex or love the AP, I can tell you it’s still the absolute worst pain of my life. The fact that the person I loved and trusted the most in this world could betray me, lie to me, and kiss another woman is still traumatizing.

I totally believe you. You seem to be in a somewhat rare situation in what you describe, no love and no sex. Are you talking a halted ONS situation? I’m curious because your situation not having these common elements but still triggering the betrayal trauma anguish, the scientist in me is trying to find the distilled nugget of what causes this pain in us. Would you be willing to share a little more? It’s ok if not.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 2176   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8807869
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 2:11 AM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

I think in fact all these long-winded posts by the fWW in many instances OBFUSCATES a lot.

I couldn’t disagree more. Just came off a long talk with my wife. We talked about these questions of love and what she meant by it then and now. It was good. And the insight I’ve gotten from the fWW’s here helped me to understand what she said and accept it.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 2176   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8807870
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Stillconfused2022 ( member #82457) posted at 4:58 AM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

I agree with Ink that if ADS was able to say more about what the nugget of pain is it would be helpful. But of course understandable if too painful.

Our situation was also a no love or sex, by report. I was aware the secretary was a bad actor so from the second there was a whiff of friendliness between them I started monitoring his departure from work and tracking his route home and his ride in in the morning, like he was a toddler. Which is how he was acting. This basically left the office as the only place to get into trouble. They got as far as 2nd base supposedly. They had privacy on one occasion at the end but she knew then that he was taking away her job so she was pissed and supposedly wouldn’t go further. Of course I’ll never know but he had no reason to come clean with all this stuff to then just continue to lie. He very much wanted to have sex.

The nugget for me is that he was willing to throw our family away like trash. His three little kids. Can’t understand how he could do that. It is all tangled for me with my father doing the same thing. Thank you for asking the nugget question Ink because it helped me realize I think that is the nugget for me. He isn’t the person I thought he was. I just have to decide what I want to do with that information. I do think he is different now but I’m not sure he can really deal with the after effects of his actions. He says he can but I’m not so sure.

In that sense the love & sex aren’t really the point. It’s not so much a question of how great or not they thought the AP was. Just their supposed life parter wasn’t worth much to them. At least not in their conscious mind. How does one live with that knowledge?

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 10:31 PM, Sunday, October 1st]

posts: 391   ·   registered: Nov. 27th, 2022   ·   location: Northeast
id 8807886
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WalkinOnEggshelz ( Administrator #29447) posted at 6:43 AM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

Look Bro, your WW probably aint the post-A WOES or HikingOut.


Well, at least not yet. wink

There are also A LOT of better women out there who just won't cheat and who won't throw around the FOO stuff at you.

Yes, but it’s up to InkHulk to decide whether the history he has with his wife is worth the risk of the unknown over beginning a life without her. Is she worth that leap of faith? It is no one’s decision but the two people involved. Not you, not me.

If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

posts: 16686   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2010   ·   location: Anywhere and everywhere
id 8807888
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Ozzy1788 ( member #83108) posted at 10:31 AM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

@InkHulk - just wanted to thank you for creating these insightful threads. I am kind of living vicariously through you at the moment on these boards, as I feel you went through a hell of a lot more than me but are showing similar characteristics in forgiveness and moving on. I am really grappling with how much I want to cling to my anger about certain things and how much I want to just let them go. I did think that was weakness but I am starting to think it is just me! Why hold onto that anger when it just makes me upset? I have noticed that different people have different levels of requirement regarding what they need in order to R, and am starting to think that there is no right and wrong in that regard, it is just what works for each couple (as with many many other facets of life).

Big thanks to the WSs from me as well, your perspectives are so helpful smile

posts: 175   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8807892
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AintDatSpecial ( member #83560) posted at 12:41 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

@InkHulk it was a coworker and they kissed a bunch of times. They both wanted sex but she wanted to leave and get a hotel and he wouldn’t because he knew he’d get caught. He was hoping she’d have sex in the car AT THEIR WORKPLACE. The intent was there just not the opportunity, yet.

The fact that he got physical in any way with another woman is horrendous to even think about. He could’ve developed feelings for her, as he put himself out there. As another poster said, the fact that he risked his whole life and family for this is so very painful.

Me- BW/ Him- WH, both early 40s/ D-day June 2023/ working on healing me

posts: 58   ·   registered: Jul. 6th, 2023   ·   location: United States
id 8807896
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 2:16 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

Yes, but it’s up to InkHulk to decide whether the history he has with his wife is worth the risk of the unknown over beginning a life without her. Is she worth that leap of faith? It is no one’s decision but the two people involved. Not you, not me.

This makes me think of another song from a favorite band, Relient K. The song is "Curl Up and Die", and for any former waywards out there, I recommend listening to this song and possibly "giving" it to your BS, I know it would have been really touching to me. It’s not perfect, but might work for you.

But the line in particular is

Clinging to the remnants of perfection like most do after they break it

Not knowing which direction’s the correct one, do I discard or remake it

Crying a little just typing that out.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 2176   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8807945
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 2:29 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

@InkHulk - just wanted to thank you for creating these insightful threads.

Ozzy, that feels like thanking a drowning man for clinging to a life raft. I’m doing this mostly for me. I am aware that probably a lot of people read this and it does my heart good to hear others are also benefitting from it.

I have noticed that different people have different levels of requirement regarding what they need in order to R, and am starting to think that there is no right and wrong in that regard, it is just what works for each couple (as with many many other facets of life).

Yeah, I think this is true, to an extent. I do think this board’s core messages have helped me avoid some common pits BS’s fall into, which involves accepting far too little and even blame transference. At my current state of the journey I couldn’t say "unmet needs" is just another way to do this, I think it’s a lie from the pit of hell and I’m embarrassed it’s pushed by a Christian author. But once you get past some of those traps, my reading of the place is there is freedom and variety in the path to healing and R (if you want it). I hope and pray for the best for you, Ozzy.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 2176   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 2:36 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

Huge thanks to StillConfused and ADS for adding those stories to this discussion, I find them immensely helpful. I feel like I learned something just hearing about them AND they will be data points in my mind that help me interpret things going forward. I hear that just having enough proof to feel devalued and ready to be discarded by our beloved is enough to send us to the depths of soul anguish. I’d love to hear other people’s thoughts on this, I feel like there is more to be extracted from this than I’m immediately seeing.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 2176   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8807955
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 2:43 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

The fact that he got physical in any way with another woman is horrendous to even think about. He could’ve developed feelings for her, as he put himself out there. As another poster said, the fact that he risked his whole life and family for this is so very painful.

It is so insanely painful and disturbing, and I’m so sorry for your pain. Thanks for redeeming a piece of it here and helping your fellow sufferers, I appreciate it greatly.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 3:43 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

I do NOT think that deciding to NOT R is a sign of weakness.

Right.

It's not as simple as 'R shows strength' or 'D shows strength'. Either can show strength; either can come from weakness. In all probability, there's some of each in each decision.

IMO, deciding on the basis of what one wants is strong. I think that's the first quality in being strong/using one's strength.

Accepting what's possible also demonstrates strength. If the WS is a good candidate for R, R is eminently possible, if the BS wants it. If the WS isn't a good candidate for R, D is probably the best choice, IMO, all other things being equal. R/D that comes from want and analysis is strong, IMO.

At the same time, when fear is a big driver of a decision, I have trouble seeing it as strong. There's good reson to be afraid of the future after d-day, but there's no reason to victimize oneself with one's fear.

IMO, BSes need good decisions, not fast ones. And I think the best decisions come from first figuring out what one wants. That doesn't come immediately. It's normal for fear to drive that initially. The antidote is to take the time needed for the shock to wear off, then to smell the roses/coffe/shit, and look inside.

I think SI's value is maximized when we help newbies figure out their best path - it's important to recognize that one size does not fit all. D is common. Staying together appears to be even more common. R is often eminently possible. We know very little about each other. None of us knows what's best for any other member, even in the most obvious situations. The best we can do is challenge each other to be true to themselves.

That means sharing our experiences, but to the best of our abilities, not projecting one's own experience onto others.

*****
** NOT Posting as Staff **

There are also A LOT of better women out there who just won't cheat and who won't throw around the FOO stuff at you.

Of all the assertions I've read in my long life, this is very high on my list of 'most invalid'.

First, each of us is largely a product of our reactions to our FOO and the decisions we draw from those reactions. ALL of us have problems, either because our FOO was at least somewhat dysfunctional or because we drew invalid conclusions and made bad decisions. And if someone does grow up in a perfect FOO and makes the right decisions, that someone may not be prepared to cope well in the real world outside their family. shocked

Second, almost ALL of us missed the cues that our partners would cheat. One can learn a lot from one mistake but not everything. None of us has reason for feeling confident that we can identify those women (or men) who 'just won't' cheat.

I've certainly decided my W 'just won't' cheat again, but that's not what is meant by the proposition I quoted, and, alas, I could be wrong.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:07 PM, Friday, September 15th]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 30025   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8807996
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MIgander ( member #71285) posted at 4:45 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

Hi IH,

I hear that just having enough proof to feel devalued and ready to be discarded by our beloved is enough to send us to the depths of soul anguish. I’d love to hear other people’s thoughts on this, I feel like there is more to be extracted from this than I’m immediately seeing.

I am very sensitive to rejection from my FOO. I can definitely say my A was an exit one. Our M was in the shitter, H was having an EA and rejecting me regularly in addition to comparing me nearly constantly to a close friend (who he was in his EA with) and saying I should learn from her how to be a good wife/mother/woman.

Living in that situation is AGONY. Rejection on the level of your looks/mothering/housekeeping/spirituality and having "perfection in a woman" held up to you on a regular basis is a soul crusher.

I'm not proud of it, I really let loose and lost my temper on my H over these sorts of things yesterday.

H has been rejecting me a lot lately in little ways, pulling away from hugs, not kissing, no initiation of affection. What finally did it for me was him sending me an instagram post about a man talking about how his wife doesn't apologize and then tries to act all sweet after an argument to avoid taking responsibility for her shit. How this husband then "holds his boundary" and refuses to accept her affection, overtures of reconciliation without the apology. That doing so make him more respected in his relationship, and THAT's what's the IMPORTANT THING. H said he related SO MUCH to this.

I had a major issue with this:
1. We had an argument, I apologized for not responding to his texts in as timely a manner as he would like on a lunch with a supplier
2. I offered and then instituted a fix: change H's ringtone and text tone to something special so I know it's him and to prioritize it.
3. H refused to engage in any affection, snuggling or in general any of the things I was opening to him for amends.

Basically told him that if he feels he has an unrepentant wife, that's his problem. I apologize and make amends to the best of my ability now. H said he didn't FEEL the apology. Well, shit, I can't force him to feel anything. I know my objective actions were what typically look like a responsive and concerned partner would do for their spouse over a concern. I told him if he's got a problem accepting my apologies, that's on him. That if he values his "self respect" over having a warm and loving relationship with his wife, that's his choice. That if he would rather remain safe in his cold rejection of me and my efforts than have a warm loving relationship with his wife, that is his doing and entirely up to him.

All this to say, rejection, discard and devalue happen on both sides of the equation. For my part, at this time, I'm telling H (on repeat) that I need warmth, affection and attention. He's asking if he can share his problems. Since his problems have been addressed time and again and it's up to him to decide if he can compromise on unrealistic demands to resolve them, no I didn't want to address his concerns. From where I sat, it looked like deflection and reversal. The resolution of his discomfort would mean a compromise in another area (lifestyle, lack of travel or WFH- one of those would have to go). Since he's decided he wants the lifestyle (continued high pay), the WFH I have and the lack of travel this position necessitates, then he has chosen to remain uncomfortable with AP in the same building (HR has a strict NC order on him, building is huge, we are in different areas/functions and I RARELY see him down the hall when I'm going place to place). That may sound triggering to several fresh BS's here, please ask, I'll explain.

No, I didn't want to hear it after I had shared something that he could take concrete actions over. I didn't want him to turn the conversation to his hurts and needs so he could skate on his own responsibilities as a partner. I didn't want to give him the chance to reject his responsibility for the daily rejections of me that contribute to the lack of "fun" and the joylessness in our M. I didn't want him to feel he had an excuse for his behavior and the results it entails.

I'm being a responsible partner today and owning my shit for losing my temper and yelling at him yesterday. I'm taking him out for a drink in a bit so we can relax and enjoy the nice weather outside while it lasts. If he doesn't FEEL the apology after that, and continues to reject me and my requests for warmth and affection... that's on him. look

Sorry, bit of a thread jack, meant to give you insight on the rejection side and the damage it does. From both sides of the fence, rejection sucks. I didn't have to have an affair as the response to my H's years of rejection. I could have D'd. He's starting to get it. Hopefully we'll have some good conversation around it today. He says proudly of himself that if someone comes to him with a problem, he can confidently say he'll fix it. Let's see if it applies to his behavior towards me grin

WW/BW Dday July 2019. BH/WH- multiple EA's. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

posts: 1183   ·   registered: Aug. 15th, 2019   ·   location: Michigan
id 8808005
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emergent8 ( Guide #58189) posted at 5:59 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

Look Bro, your WW probably aint the post-A WOES or HikingOut.

I’ve been here long enough to remember when HikingOut wasn’t the post-A Hikingout. She has stated herself that she showed up here VERY much in the fog. I remember reading DaddyDom’s earlier posts around here - I assure you they are different than the ones he posts now. I have witnessed my husband learn and grow, I assure you he wasn’t a post-A WOES at the beginning of all of this either. He isn't WOES now either, but I don't think that reconciled Waywards are a monolith group. I appreciate that these posters might be your only real-life examples.

I do NOT think that deciding to NOT R is a sign of weakness.

As far as I know, no one suggested it was. I agree with Sisoon when he says that both can be chosen from a place of strength, and both can be chosen from a place of weakness.

There are also A LOT of better women out there who just won't cheat and who won't throw around the FOO stuff at you.

Maybe. It’s hard to tell who is who though, isn’t it? Most of us chose to marry our spouses because after lot of careful consideration and vetting, we decided that they were the best possible person for us. None of us got married believing that our spouse would cheat. All of us were wrong, and we know that we could also be wrong in the next relationship. I was in my early 30s and childless when my husband cheated. I was young and attractive and had a high paying job and I was very aware that if I left, I would have a bunch of other options. But I also knew that I had chosen my husband carefully, and there was no one in the world I’d ever met before or after him that I got along with as well, and there was no one else I would have the same shared history with, and I knew that even if I miraculously found someone else and vetted them carefully , that person could eventually end up cheating on me too someday. If there was one thing that all of this showed me, it was that if MY husband could be a cheater, anyone could.

Also, I think you’re still assuming that FOO stuff is an excuse. All of us have "FOO stuff" that influences how we operate in our day to day life, yourself included. I don’t think anyone (WS or BS) that ever actually reconciled with their spouse believes that the "FOO stuff" was an excuse. There is obviously NO excuse. But trust me, after learning he was capable of cheating I wanted my husband to figure out his "FOO stuff". He is a better partner for having done so.

Me: BS. Him: WS.
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
Happily reconciled.

posts: 2162   ·   registered: Apr. 7th, 2017
id 8808022
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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 6:48 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

Yes, I can confirm what emergent said. In fact, I think there have been very few ws who showed up who could rival how bad my headspace was when I got here. It took almost a full year and that was only after my husband asked for a divorce and we went to in home separation. I was having basically a nervous breakdown (the diagnosis was emotional exhaustion, and so also had to be treated for obsessive compulsive disorder.

The only thing that kept our marriage together for long enough for me to improve is I love and sex bombed him and that we had a couple of decades of what we both consider to be a good marriage.

To say we went to hell and back is an understatement, and by the time I was functional and on the right path he was having his own affair. When WOES said it’s a long, deep, and arduous process, that’s the truth. Recovery and reconciliation truly became a full time job for me literally for years. It is never something I could throw away so carelessly again, so while I can appreciate that I did devastating things that I wish I had never done, I do think I am a safe partner and much safer than starting over.

I also think the same as Sisoon, divorce or reconciliation isn’t a strong or weak, they are both valid paths. Both still require the BS to heal, and both can be done erroneously. That’s why I don’t push people either way. I believe people are redeemable by they have to want to be part of that process.

And as far as foo, I don’t blame my affair on anything but bad decisions and poor integrity. We talk about FOO here because that’s the first thing a therapist is going to help you trace in order to change ways you think, cope, and behave. You have to sometimes see patterns and where they started in order to clue consciousness enough of them to practice new ones in their place. I remember months of just challenging my motivation of doing things to decide whether to do them. I had a notebook I would write them in.

So FOO to me is about change and moving forward and knowing and understanding yourself. It’s not why you have the affair. But some of the thoughts and behaviors are the seeds that led you down a path to be unhappy enough to have an affair.

And honestly Neverfooled, how you are looking at it is probably from your own societal or Foo programming on top of a really bad personal experience with it. Divorce was the right answer for you, and your reasons are of course completely valid.

And you are right, not all ws change. I just don’t think we can always tell by an anonymous forum which ones will or won’t. I will say that there are couples who I thought would reconcile and didn’t, and many that did that I never thought would. There are patterns we can all recognize as good or bad but honestly that whole first year? It’s a shit show for all of us regardless of outcome.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:51 PM, Friday, September 15th]

7 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

posts: 7284   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2017   ·   location: Arizona
id 8808034
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 7:05 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

Guys, guys, guys…. It’s MY job to banter with WBFA, you are totally messing with the mojo. grin

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 2176   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8808059
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 10:13 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

ETA: Edited out because after consulting my attorney @InkHulk I thought better. I guess I gotta accept that my opinions are a conversation starter!

I have seen too many BH who have been trying R with their WW, who are now sad sad men walking around as if they have their balls cut off. I do NOT want this to be our friend @InkHulk. I also have seen a few men who cut themselves free from their bad relationship who couldn't be happier.

The way I see things works for me and so I am going to keep posting.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:59 PM, Friday, September 15th]

posts: 924   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8808129
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 10:29 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

And...I am not telling anyone what to do. I do try to give a good and useful counterweight to the other takes people are giving, but of course, @InkHulk for example is certainly strong enough to take whatever I say he finds helpful and...leave the rest.

posts: 924   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8808131
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 10:33 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

To those who are not our friend InkHulk (or in this thread, WOES as I asked her some questions or hikingout as I referenced her) who want to tell me how wrong I am... I am NOT listening. I have tuned you out.

I’m not exactly sure how this works out from a paradox and logic perspective, but your friend InkHulk recommends that you consider all those people’s voices. wink Not saying your perspective is invalid, no one is. But neither is theirs, and that is the point. Lots of possibilities in this shitty game.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 2176   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8808134
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 10:59 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

See my edits laugh

posts: 924   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8808137
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emergent8 ( Guide #58189) posted at 11:14 PM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

Edit: WBFA - I see you have deleted your comment, I will therefore delete my response to it.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 12:15 AM, Saturday, September 16th]

Me: BS. Him: WS.
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
Happily reconciled.

posts: 2162   ·   registered: Apr. 7th, 2017
id 8808140
Topic is Sleeping.
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