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Newest Member: Losthubby81

Reconciliation :
3 Years (and a day) since DDay

Topic is Sleeping.
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 This0is0Fine (original poster member #72277) posted at 6:16 PM on Monday, December 12th, 2022

Before I get to a specific update about my reconciliation/relationship updated, I'm going to make a post a little more about this forum and the advice that's often given here. I hope that it can be a useful summary and "decoder ring".

Out of all the things I did wrong, one thing that definitely went right was joining this forum. I know that I have been a prolific poster and contributor for a while here. Some of you may have noticed my participation has dwindled a bit. That's perhaps a reflection of the healing and that I don't feel like I need to be here as much, but I also think it's because getting in and through some of the difficult JFO threads is something that has it's own emotional toll. So especially there, I have sort of stopped jumping in as much as I used to for boilerplate advice. So, here is some distilled advice:

The two best books:
"Not Just Friends" by Shirly Glass. This book is very effective at showing how affairs happen, and what you can do to defend against them (though it makes it obvious you cannot affair-proof your marriage).
"How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda MacDonald. This is the book that will most importantly help your WS avoid the "haphazard"/"detain and torture" actions in recovery and reconciliation.

Things you need to avoid/chief bad behaviors of a WS:

Blameshifting: making it seem like the affair is somehow the fault of *anyone* other than the cheater. The affair is the fault of the cheater. The marriage could have been better, but cheating wasn't going to make it better. The AP might have been attractive and relentless, but WS should have protected your M. The world and other external circumstances are not to blame.

Rugsweeping: refusal to talk about and address the affair. "I don't want to talk about it", "We need to move on", "This again?" But also, rugsweeping by the BS. Not talking about the A because you don't want to "ruin the mood" or just classic conflict avoidance. To recover from the affair conflict is necessary.

Minimization: the WS will make it seem like the A isn't that bad. It could be worse. We never did XYZ. Doesn't matter.

Catastrophizing: the WS will declare that they are a bad person and hopeless. This is perhaps accurate. But this is usually followed up with something like, "Nothing I ever do will be good enough!" This is generally used as a sort of excuse to then do actually nothing, when they should be trying everything they can to make amends.

Continued Lying/Trickle Truth: self explanatory. To avoid this, a complete *written timeline* should be one of the first demands of the BS along with complete electronic transparency. In a sense, this is also where the "marriage police" thing comes in. For some time after the A, you'll need to get a VAR, maybe hire a PI. You start recovery in an informational war with a person you can't trust. You can't use tools to fight this forever, but if you don't use them at all, you'll get lied to.

And now for the "decoder ring" of phrases you'll hear and maybe not know what to do with:


Sorry you're here, glad you found us.

What it means:

We all understand the pain you are going through right now. It feels like you have been ripped in half. Your mind is probably telling you to run and your heart is telling you that you still love your WS. It's devastating. You might think things like, "It would have been easier if you would have died." This is normal, though I think in the long run, for most people that's not really true. We have been there to and we have a wealth of experiences that we can provide to help you through it.

You're old marriage is dead.

What it means:

The one thing most of us long for most is to return to before the A. We wish that our relationship could just be like it was before, but it simply cannot. Even if you eventually do choose R, you have to understand that the marriage you rebuild (or build from scratch) is going to be completely different than the one you had before. There are permanent losses you will have as part of the death of your old marriage. You will not return to implicit and arguably naive levels of trust. You might still love your partner, and perhaps even recommit for life. I'm not there yet personally. In my new marriage it's basically "for as long as I can hack it" and one whiff of a repeat and I'm out the door. There is permanent damage, and when you enter the new marriage you will almost certainly have to change what your original thoughts were on some important topics. Attaining this level of "flexibility" is certainly offset by the loss of "something integrity adjacent". The reason being most of us never thought we would tolerate cheating.

You have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it. OR You have to let go of the outcome.

What it means:

This doesn't mean you should threaten divorce to get your WS to shape up. It means if you aren't genuinely ready to leave the relationship with an unsafe partner, they simply will not change. It might feel like splitting hairs, but it's very important. I don't think there is any skipping to the end on this one. This is where a lot of the mess happens. You may *want* to save your marriage, and most likely you will do whatever you feel will work best to do so. I'm not saying to not try that, I'm just saying that part of the work and lesson is that you have to be ready to walk away when you aren't getting the actions you need out of your WS.

You both have to do the work.

What it means:

What is "the work"? This is a harder one to define in short, but it means a few things. For the BS, a lot of the work is unlearning societal beliefs about infidelity and what it happens. Really refusing to accept blame, but still be able to admit you could improve as a partner. Being able to separate the relationship from the affair is one of the heavy lifts for the BS. Another is understanding what you need to feel safe again. I think one of the biggest things that helps restore safety is "transference of vigilance". This is covered in a book "How Can I Forgive You" by Janis Spring which I wouldn't recommend right out of the gate, but maybe after you think you can let up on being the marriage police. All this takes time and effort for the BS to work through. I think another important part of "the work" for a BS is dealing with the permanent losses including "something integrity adjacent". You might no longer be really proud of your marriage, but after your work you will certainly be proud of your contributions to the marriage. And if you think about it, if it takes two people to have a good marriage, you can't possibly hold yourself responsible for the other person's half. You need to own your half though.

For the WS, the hardest work is driving down into the "why?" of the A. Not the surface level, blame shifting "why". The internal machinations that they used to give themself permission to cheat. What is that thought process? How is it flawed? Are there FOO issues or trauma issues that led to that type of decision-making? How will you identify when you are in that thought pattern and break free from it? Becoming honest not just about the A, but most likely in general, is going to be a long journey for the WS.

After the infidelity is over, the goal is then to restore a sense of love, support, and safety.


I could probably write more, but I think that's some big topics. Now onto my generic update.

When I found out my wife was definitely cheating on me (and I should have figured it out sooner), my whole world came crashing down. "Somewhere between a nuclear bomb and an earth destroying meteor" is how I described the damage my wife did to our marriage to my friend. You guys all helped me through it, and I did my best to take what I needed and leave the rest. Certainly the harder of a line I took the better things went. I allowed for "work only NC" against the advice of many here. I didn't force the polygraph that she offered. And I learned of many other A's in her circle of friends. But I think it's very hard to hold a hard line, at least for me. The main reason being I never did stop loving my wife.

The first year was very hard, included broken NC, and I thought was going to end in D. I had to fire our first MC because she was less than useless (sometimes you should take some advice you decide to leave :P). On the board my signature was about embracing limbo. Once I asked for the D in writing, my wife really turned things around, even if it wasn't a truly miraculous and perfect recovery, it was a major shift in how she was thinking and behaving. She got a new job, established true NC. She found another MC with expertise in betrayal trauma/recovery from an A.

She did meet a male coworker that she made friends with at her new job. I don't think I've talked about this much but I do think she has handled this pretty much perfectly, which is almost better than "no opposite sex friends". She has maintained very solid and open communication with me about him. The first time she hung out with him outside of work, it was him and his wife with me and mine. He is a great guy and they are legitimately "just friends" because they aren't going and spending a ton of one on one time together. She isn't sending him tons of texts. The ones she does are typical friend type messages and shit talking fantasy football. She is totally open with it, and we maintain electronic transparency.

Our marriage itself is functionally much better in a lot of ways than before the A. All of the "work" has resulted in way better communication skills. We did do the Gottman thing and I think those tools are a great way to get on the same page and use the same language to address issues in a marriage. I also think we could have gotten all of those improvements without the A. Here is one of the few places I sort of agree with Esther Perel. An A is like cancer, and if you find out you have it, fight it, remove it, you might also find other things wrong with you in a full body scan and fix those as well. You can end up healthier on the other side, but it wasn't really *because* you got cancer.

Recently I had complained a little and wondered if I was in the Plain of Lethal Flatness, but I determined that life was just hard, and that having an A in your history can make a hard part of life seem harder. I talked a little bit about that as part of the "work" of separating M problems from A problems. We got over that little speed bump. We had a really wonderful Halloween and Thanksgiving. We are so far having a very nice December. While I think I've been using fWW for a while for my wife, I'm still not quite ready to call myself fBS. We have a very solid M and R is going very well. I'm still just short of saying something like "I'm happily married", but I am married and happy (which I have been for a while).

I'm looking forward to my thirteenth anniversary, which we have maintained in a bubble away from the A even from the beginning. I don't know if I would generally recommend what I did. It has been a sort of explicit rugsweeping. We have had really nice anniversaries each year aside from the whole no gift situation on our eleventh. She did a great job last year. It's nice to have a special day to appreciate each other even when dealing with the shitstorm that is the A.

One thing I don't talk about a lot and that never went wrong is that we have both put our boys first. It has never been a question with either of us. We want what is best for them and have done what we can to talk to them about things in an age appropriate way. Neither her nor I would consider weaponizing our children as it relates to our M or potential D. They know we had problems but that we love each other and got through the problems. They are doing well in school and in general. I didn't talk about it much either, but one of my sons nearly choked to death, was passed out, and needed rescue breathing. This was it's own traumatic experience for our family, but having a lot of the trauma tools available has been helpful. Even with this experience, they are healthy, wonderful, smart, and loving boys.

Where I am right now overall is in a pretty good place. I'm very happy with the effort I've put in, and I'm happy with the effort my wife has put in the last two years. We have a good life together. So if you JFO, or you are in limbo, or things are a mess, it's possible for them to get better. It just won't happen on hopium alone.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 2822   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8769217
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 7:01 PM on Monday, December 12th, 2022

I think you've used SI exactly as the founders hoped someone would.

I don't know what you're calling it, but it looks like you've recovered and R'ed or well on your way there. Doesn't matter - to stay emotionally healthy and in a good relationship, you have to keep addressing and resolving issues forever. The issues change over time, but the requirements don't. Another thing that doesn't change is that every resolved issue is a win, and it's healthy to celebrate every win.

Thanks for sharing the wisdom you've found.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 30475   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8769220
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emergent8 ( Guide #58189) posted at 7:09 PM on Monday, December 12th, 2022

Really REALLY great post, TiF. Thank you for sharing.

Happy for you. smile

Me: BS. Him: WS.
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
Happily reconciled.

posts: 2169   ·   registered: Apr. 7th, 2017
id 8769224
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BreakingBad ( member #75779) posted at 7:55 PM on Monday, December 12th, 2022

This0Is0Fine,

What an excellent quick-reference guide to so many principles that are helpful when dealing with affair trauma.

I agree that the former marriage is dead and something new will need be rebuilt in its place if a couple chooses to work toward reconciliation.

I'm approaching 3 yrs out from Dday 1 and just passed 2 yrs out from Dday 4 (which consisted of some nearly-fatal-to-the-marriage trickle truth).

If our marriage survives, I don't believe I'll ever look at our union as 32 years (or whatever #) of continuous marriage. I might tell someone that number, if asked. But in my heart and mind there will always be a gaping chasm in our marriage where we weren't really "married." We were only working to see if we might be able to stay married.

And my mind doesn't even know what to do with the 2.5-3 years where he actively pursued girlfriends online--yet I was oblivious. He certainly wasn't acting like a loyal, committed husband in those years--although he says that he always considered himself still married. (Minimization? Compartmentalization? Justification? Whatever it took to make those mental gymnastics happen.)

Anyhoo, it will always be a clear before and after view for me.

Like all of you, my life was knocked off its axis, and I needed to stabilize and find a new orbit.

It remains to be seen if we will have marriage 2.0. I hope so. But I remain as objective as possible so that I look at the actions of my fWH, the reality of what I need, and the emotional capacity I have to endure in the meantime.

I'm still just short of saying something like "I'm happily married", but I am married and happy

For me right now, truer words were never spoken.

Thanks again for such a thoughtful post!

"...lately it's not hurtin' like it did before. Maybe I am learning how to love me more."[Credit to Sam Smith]

posts: 511   ·   registered: Oct. 31st, 2020
id 8769230
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Tanner ( Guide #72235) posted at 8:32 PM on Monday, December 12th, 2022

Thanks for sharing TiF we joined about the same time and have traveled this road on the same timeline. Separating M work from R work was a big one for me. I would get so upset over life stuff and think to myself "I wouldn’t have a flat tire of her ass hadn’t cheated". Then the POLF is the middle of desert in journey, miles and miles of nothing. Coming out of the desert was like coming up the other side of the valley, I came out more healed. The only way to it is through it.

It sounds like you are well on your way, thanks again for sharing.

Dday Sept 7 2019 doing well in R BH M 32 years

posts: 3607   ·   registered: Dec. 5th, 2019   ·   location: Texas DFW
id 8769237
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lrpprl ( member #80538) posted at 9:06 PM on Monday, December 12th, 2022

Excellent post. Thanks for the update. Glad you are getting to a better place.

posts: 307   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2022   ·   location: USA
id 8769246
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Luna10 ( member #60888) posted at 9:26 PM on Monday, December 12th, 2022

Great post, I’m so happy to read this fantastic update. Congratulations!

Dday - 27th September 2017

posts: 1857   ·   registered: Oct. 2nd, 2017   ·   location: UK
id 8769251
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 This0is0Fine (original poster member #72277) posted at 6:13 PM on Wednesday, December 21st, 2022

We started watching "White Lotus". There is an affair in the past of one of the sets of characters. The husband cheated and he finally revealed it to his son, whom they hadn't told about it, and agreed to not tell about it. The wife talks about the pain and how she still has pain. It's a very good scene that does the pain justice.

For us, the A is not a forbidden topic though the kids only know the very basics and that we almost divorced.

Anyway after the scene she paused the shiw and asked if that's how I felt. I said well no, not like she described it but it does still bring a little pain when I think about it. We talked about the A a little and all the changes she made, and the general changes in our relationship and communication. That we talk about the A and the issues around it instead of rugsweeping. That because I don't hide it, it doesn't fester, but that there is still sometimes pangs of pain like pangs of grief she has for her mother. She apologized again and we went back to watching the show.

I can't quite put it into words. But the way she initiated the conversation. The non-defensive tone. The overall way we both addressed her A was a nice reminder of the progress we have made in R. No way that would have unfolded similarly in the first or even second year after DDay.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 2822   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8770323
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Tanner ( Guide #72235) posted at 10:44 PM on Thursday, December 22nd, 2022

No way that would have unfolded similarly in the first or even second year after DDay.

I believe this shows a couple things. You have both healed to a point of feeling safe with each other, dare I say trust? Those first couple years are a wild roller coaster. It also shows her acceptance of damage she caused. This is a great turning point in the journey.

Dday Sept 7 2019 doing well in R BH M 32 years

posts: 3607   ·   registered: Dec. 5th, 2019   ·   location: Texas DFW
id 8770475
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 This0is0Fine (original poster member #72277) posted at 5:00 PM on Friday, December 23rd, 2022

Season two of White Lotus is infidelity and deception *themed*. I do not think I could have took it at all even a year ago. We made five episodes into season 2 binging yesterday before bed time. We both went to bed a little triggered (for lack of a better word).

We talked about it this morning and rehashed some A issues. Talked about some of the specific scenes and phrases that stood out. Talked about how "everybody cheats" seems closer to right than not in our circle of friends, which I don't like.

We are all still good here. But I will warn y'all not to jump into season 2 if you haven't really dealt with your own shit yet.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:00 PM, Friday, December 23rd]

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 2822   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8770679
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 6:01 PM on Friday, December 23rd, 2022

Awesome post. Very inspiring. Thanks for taking the time to share that with us. It's like a lovely holiday gift for everyone here. smile

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

posts: 7075   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8770689
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WalkinOnEggshelz ( Administrator #29447) posted at 1:52 PM on Saturday, December 24th, 2022

Great post! Thank you for such a well thought out primer for new members coming in.

I’m also glad to hear that both you and your wife’s healing is moving in a positive direction.

If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

posts: 16686   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2010   ·   location: Anywhere and everywhere
id 8770781
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TwoDozen ( member #74796) posted at 2:34 PM on Saturday, December 24th, 2022

Great post TIF

Our Ddays are almost the same. Certainly in the same week.

Different results for the 2 of us but I’m pleased you have successfully R’d. In my heart of heart I was an R guy, but you knew that.

I’ve just posted my 3 year from Dday in new beginnings. Hadn’t seen yours at the time.

Wishing you and the fam all the very best for the festive period and the new year.

I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again. You was a massive support along the way. Even though it didn’t end with R for me I truly appreciated all the support you gave.

TD

Edited to add.

It’s funny isn’t it. We have almost the same dday I too have managed to climb out of the carnage of the A and I’m doing okay the other side of it however I don’t feel like I have the chops to offer the same great advice you have above. Just goes to show doesn’t it, how much I considered R as the only success and anything else as failure 🤔 maybe I need to look into this.

[This message edited by TwoDozen at 3:48 PM, Saturday, December 24th]

posts: 443   ·   registered: Jul. 6th, 2020
id 8770786
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 6:40 PM on Saturday, December 24th, 2022

TD,

I take it your WS did not want to R. That's not IN ANY WAY a failure on your part. It looks like part of you thinks you weren't good enough for your W to change. That's not what happened. Your W didn't change because she thought SHE wasn't worth changing for.

IOW, you're saying, 'I wanted to R, but my WS was unwilling, so I split and started to live life again.' That's a good outcome, even though it's not what you hoped for. Life is often difficult, and you're navigating this awful difficulty well.

Recovering from D is a lousy, difficult task. Give yourself a break, brother BS. Be kind to yourself.

I'm really sorry your WS wasn't willing to change from cheater to good partner. She lost out on rebuilding her life with a good partner.

*****

TiF,

As to your post, well done! As to your update, I'm very glad you're getting what you want.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 30475   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8770812
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TwoDozen ( member #74796) posted at 7:23 PM on Saturday, December 24th, 2022

@sisoon

I won’t hijack TIFs post with my own story but just wanted to say thanks for the comments. Happy to pick this up in my thread in "new beginnings". merry Christmas to you. TD.

posts: 443   ·   registered: Jul. 6th, 2020
id 8770822
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 This0is0Fine (original poster member #72277) posted at 1:44 AM on Sunday, December 25th, 2022

2D,

Thanks for the well wishes. I'll be sure to hit up your post. Honestly I think those that D and R aren't so different on the side of the BS. The WS cannot be controlled, and has to do the heavy lifting. I got lucky I suppose that she finally did a cranial rectal inversion. It hasn't been easy, and likewise as I worked through it, your support has helped me. This forum really is amazing in getting the collective wisdom and shared experience here. You're a good guy.

-TiF

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 2822   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8770850
Topic is Sleeping.
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