SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thanks DD,

I think the most maddening thing about it is, he thought he was telling me something for my own good. He's said things like, "Well it doesn't bother me if someone comes up to me and tells me I'm looking chubby." He also sees it as ok for people to be critical because that's how he was raised and he does it at work. Work... is one thing. And I doubt very much I would work very well for very long if my boss was out right critical or comparative between myself and others on the team. In fact, I don't think they would be good management material if that was their style. Either way, I've told him straight up before what I've thought of him being an asshole, "you know, I really hope you don't treat your co-workers as badly as you do me." Or, "I'm not your co-worker. I'm your WIFE."

I've tried setting boundaries on his comments, but he doesn't like it when I do. He goes into "poor me" mode. "Fine. Guess I will stop saying that." Or, "Guess I won't say anything then." Or when he's mad, "I'm not going to be some pushover like Jeff (mom's husband) who tells you everything is wonderful!"

Is that gaslighting? Or what? Like, is he the victim because I tell him I don't like it when he tells me that he doesn't like the way my calves look in high heels? Or that he likes perky boobs *checks shirt- NOPE not perky!!*

He's stopped comparing me to other women directly. He tells me straight, "I prefer perky boobs. I prefer blonde hair. I like it when a woman has expensive clothes and looks put together." He phrased the high heel comments in terms of them not being flattering for my body type. He feels baited when I have anger over his comments and we're having discussions about things like shoes I want to get. He's upset because he sees his dad ask his mom to do things for him, but his mom tells him all the reasons she can't or will put his request down. Yet when his mom asks his dad for something, his dad jumps through hoops to get it done.

Really, he's been trained to see his life through his dad's eyes. He doesn't want to end up like his dad, unhappy, sad, depressed and beat down. So, me pushing back on his requests when they're painful to me looks like me being his mom and pooh-poohing his ideas. A one sided relationship like his parent's.

I'm frustrated because he comes across as an entitled asshole with no sensitivity for his wife's feelings.

Oh yeah, and I'm not his mom. Seems like a lot of the requests he's pushed over the years were him proving to himself that he didn't end up marrying his mom, that I do love him because (insert expensive object here). And in turn I've felt like I've had to prove myself to him by enabling his unrealistic wants.

Because, in his mind, yeah, I did have to prove I loved him and could make him happier than his mom did his dad.

At what point though do you wonder, "gee, mom and dad are unhappy, but maybe they remain unhappy by choice?" He blames his mom for quite a bit of his dad's unhappiness. I see it a bit differently. His dad could say, "NO." That's a complete sentence. He could say, "Honey, I'm going to go and do xyz today. I'll be home at X time. Love you!" and then go do whatever he wanted to do (within reason... )

When we were texting about it today, he put forward that his upset and hurt over his perceptions of one-sidedness in the relationship come from the way his mom treats his dad. When he shared that, I asked him, "Does your dad do little romantic, kind or affectionate things for your mom before, during or after making these requests?" And, "Have you ever asked yourself if what you're asking of me is balanced by positivity and appreciation?"

I think that's his blind spot- he can only see me as his mom, shutting down his dad. He can't see that he's like his dad, depressed, angry and unhappy and dissatisfied. And completely oblivious as to his own contributions to the situation he's in.

Like, maybe if you were consistently a positive, supportive and caring spouse, I would be more open to your suggestions of hair color and wearing the "right" heels for my body type. Maybe if he was regular and consistent in his expression of satisfaction, I wouldn't be so deeply affected by his comments.

I'm working on even understanding where all my anger comes from and how much of it is my own misperceptions of him or my past hurt or what. I can easily identify what comes from my childhood spent with my narc sister telling me I'm fat and ugly.

He's only begun to do that kind of work, and hasn't been to IC in 2 months because he "doesn't see the value in it." He also doesn't "see the value" in our MC right now either. I'm kinda stuck here. The condition of ME not divorcing HIM was IC and staying in IC. Really, the work is just beginning for him and I have the impression that now he's looking at his parent's M and relating it to ours, things are becoming uncomfortable. Like, eventually he'll have to stop looking at me as the source for his unhappiness and discomfort and dissatisfaction and have to start looking at himself.

Good thing I've got IC tomorrow. And a big presentation at a conference, and single parenting... H is going to Chicago with his buddy to look at watches. Yep. I'm a negative and mean demeaning wife who always holds him back, just like his mom

What the fuck.

I have little to say about your husband being mean. Mine does not insult me but he does tell me when to get the surgery to fix a thing he does not like. He is bothering now because of the war so I do not need surgeries now but I am sure I will when he has the time to think of those things again.

I have an athletic body too and I have the implants for my breasts. My breasts were great but breastfeeding the four kids ruined them. I am 5’5" and 130 lbs with 5 lbs of breasts (460 cc in one and 500 cc in the other). This puts me at a 34 DD which looks good on my frame and allows for a taper from my chest to my waist, which is 28". I thought maybe this can help you with size? My husband was in the surgery and chose what he felt looked best when the surgeon inflated them. I do think he did well. I am not trying to speak badly but my body is quite good, I know this. Without my surgeries it would be poor though I am sure. I am happy to help you if I can with what makes the body look good, if you have questions please ask!

On being kind to myself: I have really good hair-- and I do absolutely nothing to it (wash and air dry only).

Some of the worst mistakes of my life have been haircuts. Jim Morrison

My wife and I had a little spat yesterday. Nothing big really. I got a little frustrated with her and mentioned it to her. I expected that would be the end of it. But her reaction seemed really severe, and instead of just responding to my complaint, she got very, very angry, left the house, slammed the door behind her and left for work without another word. It seemed like a rather larger response than what was expected. My daughter noted that she hadn't seen her mom that angry since around D-day, years ago. Fast forward, my wife came home, seemed perfectly happy, and didn't mention the incident at all. She seemed fine when we went to bed, and was open to cuddling, etc.

Now, the old me from years ago, was conflict-avoidant to a fault. There would have been no way that I would have brought up the argument, especially if she didn't. I would rug sweep and pretend it never happened. And of course, it would just simmer instead.

Anyway, that style of thinking, and of dealing with things (or not dealing with them at all as the case may be) did not work out so well for either of us back then. It made a lot of things worse in fact. And I'm done with that. I'd rather face a little anger than allow her to suffer in silence and to allow that poison to seep into our marriage. So this morning I made sure to bring it up. I started by apologizing for upsetting her. It wasn't my intention to upset her, however I noted that, intentional or not, that's what happened, and so I was sorry that happened. But then I was able to point out that her reaction seemed like a trigger was hit, and we had the chance to talk about that, and to figure it out together, and she had a chance to tell me how she felt in that moment and what triggered her. It all made a lot of sense, and both of us felt better having talked about it.

For me, that was a huge step, a huge change in how I deal with conflict. It is also a huge change in how I feel about myself. The old me would have been terrified of losing her, of her being angry at me, and having to deal with tough emotions, and so on. But after all this work and therapy, I had enough confidence in myself, in her and in our relationship, to face that fear. Rather than let it simmer and stew, I brought it up now. Rather than get defensive, I tried to empathize with her and allow her to express her feelings before deciding whether it was worth getting upset over or not. So I'm proud of myself for that growth, and for proving to myself, and to her, that the old DaddyDom who was too weak-kneed to be a man and a husband, was now someone who thought and felt and acted differently, and who "Sees her" and was willing to risk the conflict in order to grow the relationship, and to allow each of us to be heard and understood.

Today, I'm proud of myself for growing, and for making changes in my life to help me love myself more, and to be able to love my wife more genuinely.

DD, that is an awesome update.

It's good to know too that there's things that come up even in a mostly healed M from time to time. Like, we can R and all, but there's still going to be stubbed toes because people are people and we all screw up.

I have a defiance thing to authority that I have to work on. I'm recovering from a surgery right now and not allowed to lift heavy objects. That wasn't numerically defined in the papers, so I was lifting a cast iron pan out this morning for breakfast and BH got upset. He's been very attentive to me and giving me the "princess treatment" as they called it. Either way, I knew it was against the spirit of the law, if not the "letter."

Called the Dr and she said, "no cast iron! Or anything over 10lbs!" BH was right. I'm not used to being vulnerable enough to let others care for me. I have no problem caring for others, but when it comes to being cared for, I balk. It's scary to depend on others because that opens me to being let down. And... I've been let down so much, so it's really a trust fall situation for me when it is actually needed by me. I have to allow this time to teach me to rely on others.

I'm really very scared my husband is going to divorce me. All these threads about BS's pretending like things are fine and then D'ing without notice have got under my skin. BH can D me any time he wants, I will understand. I do understand. It's terrifying thinking that he could be as deceptive as I was and do it behind my back.

There are situations where that's needed- where there's active A going on, abuse, etc. It's just, really in our situation, I don't see why that is necessary. I've been in IC so long, we're in MC, there's better communication and more avenues for safe disclosure of his desire to D (ie: at MC) if that is what he wants to do. I don't see it as being a hostile divorce if it does come. I think (at least from what I've seen) that we've come far enough and are at peace enough that we could do it relatively smoothly. I don't want him to suffer going forward. I want him to be happy. If that's not with me, I'm going to be hurting and sad, but frankly, relieved that he would have the chance to move on and be happier.

Anyway, that's where I'm at. Still triggered by unwarranted criticism (when it comes) and still iffy about certain perspectives on finances (that being responsible is a sacrifice made for his spouse). But overall, very humbled lately by the level of care shown and trying to humble myself enough and trust it when it's offered.

Hi Iamallalone,

Didn't want to leave you hanging on your kind offer.

But YES I would like some advice! I don't know that there's a way you can PM me as you're still a new member yet, but it would be good to get in touch and get some advice. I mainly want to know what shapes and cuts to look for in my body size and type. I've figured out the colors that work on me and a few things, but I'm really not adventurous when it comes to branching out and looking at more interesting silhouettes.

Thanks!

Dom, huge thanks for this update! I really saw myself in the post - the unwillingness to adress the conflicts was such a huge part of why I build resentment to my ex to the extreme levels. I just simply did not had enough self-respect in me to be man enough.

And it is easier said than done to start setting boundaries after years of self-neglect... Had somewhat similar experience last week. With my ex we went to buy shoes for our kids and our exchange turned very bitter - she is still very hurt and used every possibility to say mean remarks in most usual conversation.

Previously - to keep the peace - I never addressed the communication that was hurtful; somehow I though that because I have been a cheater I do not have any rights to defend myself and if we simply move further, all will be good. But now my bulshit/morality radar is better - somehow managed to adress this.

"I might not fully understand the depth of your hurt and I know that it is hard time for you, and all this triggers the hurt. But if we want to be good co-parents, it would be great to find a way to work out this together. Otherwise we continue to hurt each other and, most importantly, kids."
I was really proud of myself, to be honest. And the best part - I saw that my ex actually considered what was being said.

It is so good feeling to have a self-respect and set healthy boundaries. I might get addicted :)

Been a while since I posted here.

I'm pleased with how I've been handling a brewing situation. H has been "chatting" with his old colleague friend. They would go out for "vodka tonic lunches" and get tipsy. This was after DDay and continued over a year and a half until she moved on to another job. She would drink her drinks, stare at her lunch and then take her food home. She's blonde, very petite, dresses in designer clothes and is fun and funny and does drugs and drinks heavily. Her form of fun is taking shopping trips to cities, buying multiples of $1000 shoes/purses/ whatever and gossiping about co-workers. H thinks this is fun too and lives vicariously through her. She lives with her older boyfriend, claims he beats her and then he buys her expensive "sorry" gifts. Her BF divorced his wife... H isn't sure she's the reason or not.

Needless to say... she's not a healthy person or a positive person to be around. The fact that H escapes into her life, participates on occasion in mocking her older BF and continues texting and chatting on Teams with her (the convo gets deleted when you close the window in his version) have been very upsetting and deeply disturbing to me. He's shown me their text convos per my request, and she's suggested purse brands and fun places to eat, so, some of it is interesting to me? H never mentions me to her, even though I've asked him to refer to me on occasion in their convos. Things like, "wow, my wife really liked that purse!" Stupid stuff. He hasn't. He revealed to me that she really didn't know I was married at all. He hasn't worn his ring since my daughter was born 10yrs ago. AND, since they became "friends" after DDay, he didn't want to bring me up.

She brings out the worst in him. His desire for expensive objects and living the high life... his tendency to judge people and want to mock them for their bad decisions, awkward socializing and bad dressing/hygiene and being fat. She's not a friend of the marriage.

He only recently revealed the Teams chatting stuff. My A was conducted on Teams as AP was a coworker. VERY TRIGGERING.

My dad had a blatant A on my mom with a blonde, petite, slightly younger "family friend." TRIGGER

She was told to cut off the texting by her BF, so they talked only a little on Teams for a week or two. Then, back to your regularly scheduled programming .

H (as he will be referred to from now on- MULTIPLE EA's) has been having an emotional A with her.

It's all surface, superficial shit. The stuff he wants from me that he gets from her. The "fun" part of life. She's young, pretty and superficial and he enjoys her craziness. SAME SHIT MOST A's ARE MADE OF.

In his favor: he's been open about their "friendship" and has chosen not to go to meetups with other old co-workers at bars when she was going to be there. BUT only after he asks me if it's a good idea or not, or if I'd mind. He knows it's bad to meet up with alcohol and her combined- especially in the evening... BUT... he would allow himself to if he could justify it as, "W thinks it is ok."

He knows it's unhealthy, and has just recently said he's cutting it off. He doesn't like how much he's coming to enjoy their friendship and doesn't think it's right for him to be speaking to another woman other than his wife so much.

None of this has anything to do with the fact that he knows I'm uncomfortable with their relationship. He doesn't phrase any of this in terms of, "I know you're uncomfortable with this, and I am too. I think it's best I stop chatting with her." He has expressed that he wants the fun side of life with me that he has with her (more comparisons- before it was because I wasn't as "spiritual" and as good a person as his first EA ).

The fuck. Now I'm really mad. Evil hamster is revving up. Taking a breath.

Getting back to being kind to me. In the midst of all this, I have expressed myself with calm I statements, "I don't like how much you're talking to her. It makes me uncomfortable as she's many things that you wished I could be. I don't care for the fact that she's bringing out negative things in you. It's also making me uncomfortable that her BF is not happy with your friendship as well." I have not DEMANDED he stop talking to her. I have left him up to his own decision. I have not yelled, screamed or become fully into "evil hamster" mode on this. I have about other things... but NOT this. I am growing and taking back my dignity and power in this area. My mother didn't stand up to my dad in a rational manner, but I have, and it's healing to me to do it. I'm really proud of the progress I'm making.

Still, I'm monitoring the situation closely. H has justified it as, "well, you used to have inappropriate relationships with your co-workers. It's always been a double standard and unfair that what was ok for you wasn't for me." I have stopped my inappropriate relationships with COW, and haven't had any for the past 1.5yrs. An old high school friend my H is friends with too (knows about our A and very good person) and I started chatting about ADHD and depression struggles (his wife is depressed, he's ADHD and his son just got diagnosed too). H was unhappy about how much we were talking, and I decided to stop. Told my old friend that H was uncomfortable and I didn't want to make him that way. He respected that and we've not chatted since.

I've changed, but he hasn't yet. He's aware of how inappropriate relationships are hurtful to the other spouse. He's aware that his friendship is hurting her BF too. He's aware of how hurtful it's becoming to me. He's still justifying it to himself and angry about the "unfairness" of it all and "when does he get to have fun?" VERY WAYWARD.

It's a white knuckle situation. H has stopped IC (just when it was getting deep) and we haven't been to MC in about 2ish months. We're going to start MC again soon. H doesn't see the value of IC, so he's not going to do it. I can't make him do it and I'll have to learn to come to acceptance that H likely won't get counseling. Just as he has to come to acceptance that I'm not quitting my job and I will have to go into work on occasion and be on the same campus as exAP.

More to come...

[This message edited by MIgander at 2:59 PM, Monday, June 6th]

Oh, also, he's upset that there always seems to be "another crisis of the week" and something going on with me that prevents me from being fun.

I want to be fun and can be when we're out of the house and on our own together.

The last 2 weeks have been draining as I've recovered from my surgery and he's had to step it up around the house. I also found out that the dr performed the wrong type of procedure (put them under rather than over as requested). The results are good, but NOT what I clearly communicated to her. The muscle is cut and damaged, I'll likely not be able to do as many pushups as I used to and lifting weights will have to be done more cautiously now (per my neighbor who had it done too and works out as well). Dr offered to get into surgery and redo it per the original plan. I decided to decline, the damage is done and I didn't want ANOTHER surgery and another opportunity for infection and another set of scars and another, longer recovery. She did a good competent job, just not the job I requested. Sigh.

I'm proud of myself and my H about this. I am upset about the procedure mix up. Used to be, I would go quietly and let this go. However, it is a clear case of malpractice. Her autopilot mode was great, but... she needed to check the paperwork before cutting and placing. Instead of just walking away, I am asking for my money back. I could clearly sue in this case and her office is insured. BUT I'm not that vindictive person and don't have the emotional/mental energy to go for a lawsuit right now. I'm persisting and have asked that they come up with a fair solution by the time I go in for my 2nd post op appointment this week. If it's not a full refund, I'll ask for a full refund. If it's refused, I will gently remind them that this is a clear case of malpractice. Then... crickets...

If they still won't give me a full refund... well, my sis in law is a lawyer and knows people.

Really I want my money back and don't want to make a bigger fuss of it than need be.

H said to me, "I'm upset about this on your behalf. You do not deserve to be pushed around on this. They clearly screwed this up and you deserve to have it made right. Definitely go for the refund. Don't settle for less, you deserve this."

Really, hearing that is almost better than having my $$ back.

So yeah, not all bad, but H is in an active EA. Sigh.

Still, I'm monitoring the situation closely. H has justified it as, "well, you used to have inappropriate relationships with your co-workers. It's always been a double standard and unfair that what was ok for you wasn't for me."

With a straight face? He basically justifies his EA with the double standard of that he is allowed to have inappropriate relationships with coworkers, but you are not going forward. There's no keeping score in a successful marriage. If what he is doing is wrong for you to be doing, than it is wrong for him to be doing.

Hi grubs,

He did. I think the way I handled this situation- being open about how I felt and not telling him what to do, has given him the space to think about it on his own terms. We've had some good conversations about it and I think he's understanding how going for the easy nothingburger of entertainment from another woman only frustrates his desire to have it from me. I mean, like I'm really going to be thinking he's all that great when he's being entertained by this other woman's attention?

The whole mutual empathy thing is something we've both lacked in our M. It's coming, I'm realizing how much this site and my writing here hurts him. I'm also hurting because he's not in IC, nor likely to go back on his own accord. Things we will both have to be patient or accepting about each other with, if we are going to continue fixing this.

I do have to clarify- H isn't pining for this woman in the deeper senses. She's gratifying his more shallow companionship needs.

I am glad to see this thread is still strong. I get on in fits and bursts and then have to put it away and stay away a while. Like Bulcy, I can also find it awkward to post in a thread like this but when I read the transparent way you are relating your defeats and triumphs it truly may be the best illustration of "the work" happening in real time. That takes a bravery I think is unprecedented on this site among ws. So kudos to you Migander.

I was like you, I needed the sounding board even if it was mostly my own reflection on what I had written. I am not sure I could get there without having this site for that.

My kindness to myself today is I am having an off day. Instead of pushing myself, or questioning it, I am just taking some time to rest and vibe. I used to think productivity=worth.

I now feel some of our most unproductive, meandering time can be the most benefit in where we are trying to go. I have been in bed on and off the whole day. The lights are on, I am not brooding or depressed. I am simply vibing with myself and spending some time reflecting. I think that’s what drew me here today - the need to hear the nuances of how my thoughts and feelings have changed and evolved and to pinpoint some spots where I might do more of that.

I am happy I am not hiding in busy. I am open to what is today and that is needed for self care.

I think for my fellow ws who are struggling today - remember you are divinely loved. We are all dark and light. Find your path to be in the light as much as you can and it will enable you to shine for others. I truly believe we are here to find our path to love unconditionally and remove the obstacles we have to it. You are being given the obvious starting point for how to get on that path- love yourself. That’s not the same as being selfish. It’s about clean living, living in a way you can be proud of, and creating a softness that allows you to truly practice loving and compassion towards others. I love you all, you can absolutely do this.

Thanks for the kind words HO. I too need time to "vibe" and sit with my feelings and figure them out. Writing it out here helps a lot- getting it out in black and white helps me sort out what is my opinion and what is really fact. My need to do that varies depending on the day.

Lately, I've been proud of my ability to take a break and respect time-outs. I've managed to apologize better for letting insecurities get in the way of enjoying my time with my husband. It's been giving me more hope for things really being able to improve in our marriage. Not sure whether in the end H will decide to R or not, but I'm proud of myself and how much work I've done so far.

Lately I am questioning my relationship with my mother. I had to cut her out of my life (hopefully temporarily) for some horrific comments directed right at me. She insulted my faith, revealed a sensitive letter I wrote for her only to my sisters (settling an issue between just the 2 of us) and blamed me for future deaths from "back alley abortions" if the Supreme Court knocks down Roe v Wade. Whatever some one's own opinion on the matter, I don't think it's right to blame particular people for the choices and actions of many other individuals.

So yeah, even when called out on it by my sisters, mom doubled down. So, I blocked her. Told her exactly why and how her comments affected me. Let her know that I can't continue to have her as a regular presence in my life. We weren't all that close before due to some other gaslighting and disrespectful behavior toward myself and my sisters, but I was in the group chat and responding and texting or calling her from time to time.

She's likely bitter by my lack of communication over the past 2 years and figured she could blow up the relationship since she didn't have much of one. Who knows.

What I'm trying to figure out is if what I'm doing (protecting myself from abuse) is really unforgiveness (something I don't want to be stuck in) or if it's a prudential judgement. Like, I'm not judging her as going to hell, but judging from her actions and behaviors towards me and others that she's not a safe person for me or my family to be around. I can forgive her for her comments- I understand her story and where they come from. It's just, I think it's stupid for me to open myself up to more abuse from her when I know what she's like and how she's NOT changing.

But... as I say in my tag line... if nothing changes, nothing changes. Do I change the way I treat her and allow her into my life in a polite and distant way (which I did before)? Do I apologize first for the hurt my cutting her out caused? I'm NOT apologizing for cutting her out- I believe it was the right thing to do. But, I feel guilty about hurting her in this way and guilty for possibly not following the commandment to honor father and mother.

Am I perpetuating this cycle? Would my apology be able to heal the situation or at least open the door to this? I really don't want mom to get old and die and us not to be on speaking terms. She's not all bad, just, not healthy for me to be around.

If I apologize for the pain I caused her, would that mean that I'm trying to manipulate the situation?

These are things I'm asking myself.

I'd like to say being kind to myself has gotten easier. Unfortunately it hasn't. It takes practice. So here goes.

I am Human. Flawed & imperfect. It seems hypocritical to believe as a WS, but I am loyal. Its a strength I am proud of, but like my IC keeps reminding me.....

"Our strengths outside of proper boundaries, become our weaknesses."

Migander thank you for this thread.

Total threadjack: Neanderthal! How are you? It’s been a while. How is your daughter doing?

Our strengths outside of proper boundaries, become our weaknesses.

thank you for that quote, neanderthal. lovely!

here's a quote i'm very fond of, and that has helped me in recovery--

Until the lion learns how to write, every story will glorify the hunter. African Proverb

as to being kind to self: today, i am thankful for my running shoes, and strong legs that carry me forward. while running may seem like a punishment to some (most?), it truly is the very best gift i give myself (such kindness and joy for body, mind, and soul).

Total threadjack: Neanderthal! How are you? It’s been a while. How is your daughter doing?

Yeah it's been awhile. I'm fine. My daughter is amazing. She's excelling at school, enjoying sports, and still hasn't met a stranger.
Thread jack over.

Hi N, glad to see you're still coming around and your daughter is doing well.

I had a good IC session today. We worked through some things with my mom (no, I don't need to keep feeling guilt about keeping her out of my life, she's toxic). I think the guilt was coming more from what I expected of myself as a daughter to any mother I happened to have. It's sad though- I would like to be a better, more loving daughter and have a better, more positive mother. That's not the situation with my "biological" mom (NOT adopted... just firing her from that role in my life). I do have the opportunity to be a better daughter to any surrogate moms I can come to know.

IC and I also talked about blind trust being placed in other people. Whether I could trust anyone or have trusted anyone or do trust anyone. I told her of how I haven't innocently trusted anybody since I started getting abused by my sister when I was six. Haven't intrinsically trusted a man since I was about 8-9 and saw the way my dad was interacting with Mrs. C right in front of my mom. I have a very difficult time trusting women in general as my one sister abused me for years, my other sister made excuses and enabled her (instead of telling her to shut the fuck up and leave me alone). My mother has recently blamed me for all the back alley deaths she believes will come if the Supreme Court overturns RvW. Among a laundry list of other boundary violations, unreliable, immature and entitled selfish behavior she's shown over the years. Mom is about as mature as a 16yr old girl. A fun girl to hang out with, but... yeah, it's not actually that kind a thing to say about some of the excellent babysitters I know who watch my own kids around that age. You get the point.

My own favorite aunt (mom's big sister) who doted on me as a kid said I was making the biggest mistake in my life marrying my H and becoming Catholic. I can understand the Catholic prejudice thing- it's not like everyone in the world is enthusiastic about us Catholics. But what I sorted out about my hurt and sense of betrayal about my aunt turning on me on the morning of my wedding was how she went from doting to critical on some deep things in the blink of an eye. I didn't see it coming. My favorite aunt was so self centered that she couldn't just shove it for one day and be happy for me. H and I definitely struggle to work together . Just... the way she put it, it wasn't in a concerned way, "I'm concerned because I want you to be happy. XYZ in your relationship makes me feel uneasy about your decision to marry H. He seems like a good person, but is he the right person?" Instead, it came out more like, "Marrying H is the biggest mistake of your life. Becoming Catholic and marrying in the church like you are is only going to lead you to misery. H will dominate and control you the rest of your life and your religion will tell you to just accept it as that's what they believe." All while I was wearing my blue button down shirt going off to the hair salon... AND all this based off what MY MOTHER told her. Like, she met H maybe 3 times before, so that qualifies her to judge the state of our M? Or the faith I chose? So disappointing, especially from someone I trusted and looked up to and still love for all that. She didn't bother to understand for herself before she judged. She condemned instead of bringing up a concern about how prudential a decision my marrying H was.

So I have a hard time trusting men, women my own age, women older than me... all from a very young age. I have a very jaded view of humanity some days and despise anyone who pretends to be such a good person and act like the the Pharisees. Like really? You think I don't see through that shit? "And I know funny! I'm a clownfish!" (Finding Nemo reference... I know hypocrisy, I was raised by them! ) I am also very suspicious of anyone who wants to rush in and fix my problem before they've tried to understand me first. Those are the kinds that want to fix your problems so THEY don't have to feel uncomfortable about your pain. As IC said, "You're hypervigilant because you had to be." It's getting better... I'm getting better sorting out when my anxiety is taking over vs when there is something genuinely alarming going on. But man... it is so hard for someone to win my respect and trust. I counted with IC and there's about MAYBE 10 people (H not included) that are on that list. I respect H, but don't truly trust him. That's for another post. Maybe... He hates it when I post about him, so I've been doing less of that lately (respecting his wishes).

ANYWAY, this all plays into the fallout from my A. BH lost the sense of uncomplicated trust that he had in me afterward (what sane person wouldn't??). I want to have empathy for that loss... EXCEPT... I don't. I have really NEVER had that trust. Him having that kind of blind trust (the kind where you can justify taking people being good to you for granted), it seems childish to me. Like, 6yr old believing in Santa childish. Innocence that I didn't have very long that he maintained until he was 38. Naïve, stupid. Like, how can I trust someone to make decisions affecting my life who doesn't understand what people are capable of? Who can't be bothered to understand what THEY THEMSELVES are capable of? Someone who never had to fine tune their radar for bullshit, who instead used that naïve trust to enable their own bullshit towards others. The kind of bullshit that allows someone to justify continuing hurtful behavior toward others because, "I would have gone to marriage counseling eventually when it got bad enough [for me]*." I mean, forget the hellish environment he created for his wife with via insensitivity and taking her for granted and criticizing her damn near constantly- when YOU think it's bad enough ... FOR YOU... then you'll fix it?

If you don't bother to understand, then you don't have to bother to fix it.

Where did I come in on that judgement? At what point was the pain and hurt I was in worth understanding? It's really a subconscious reason for my A- H couldn't be bothered to understand the pain his choices and behavior during our M was giving me. Couldn't be bothered to try to understand and act on that understanding. A prudential judgement can be made once you understand you're causing your spouse pain with your behavior. You can stop the behavior or, if the behavior is not wrong itself, but triggering to the spouse, you can work with your spouse to defuse the trigger around the behavior. That tied in to my rage from childhood over the selfish, self absorbed people I was raised by/with. They couldn't bother understanding, couldn't bother to work on a prudential course of action to heal or protect, couldn't bother doing more than condemning and deriding.

H had his reasons for not going to MC in those days. I was post partum depressed, he heard nothing but a bitch fest those first 2 sessions and didn't see the value in having a stranger poke their head into private situations. He was overwhelmed with work, sick kid, sick wife and being sole provider. There wasn't enough bandwidth for him to emotionally process all that AND counseling. There's the understanding. My prudential judgement on that, years ago, was to bury it and give up on pushing for things to get better. That it was a waste of energy and time to try and get him to participate in fixing our M. That we were too stressed between finances and kids and family to bother pushing the issue further. That was the wrong decision looking back. That decision I made essentially killed the M in my heart and led to me building the resentments I used to justify my A.

Who knows? Maybe if I had put it bluntly back then, "we get counseling or I'm out," H would have said, "bye!" Or maybe he would have realized that MC is not a decision that only HE got to make. That there's 2 of us in the M and we are both equally a part of it.

Now, after I've been doing a lot more work on me, my prudential judgement is to say, too bad, it's not going to get better if nothing different is done. I decided (prudentially ) that I couldn't keep living in a M where I was the only one interested in doing something different and change the situation. That's when I gave him the choice to either seek counseling or D. Because without that, I couldn't see (prudential judgement here) that things were ever going to improve. That, without him actively working on understanding himself, me and our relationship, I would not be able to trust him. That my respect for him would only remain at a level of respecting a brother for how good a parent/business person/member of society they are. Note there's no personal relationship on that list- friend or lover.

Seems hypocritical of me to say this, but until I can trust that H has learned to seek understanding first before making a prudential judgement, and has STOPPED condemning and criticizing as a shortcut to ending his discomfort at my pain, I don't think I'll be able to grow in trust for him. On a level of emotional/spiritual intimacy that is what I want between myself and my H. Seeking to understand first is something I'm working on myself- to better trust myself.

Besides my own pain and hurt and rage over his blissful self justifications and blind trust that I would just continue to swim in an acid bath of an M because his parents were happy to... I'm jealous. Part of my rage is at the selfish self absorbed people who were responsible for raising me. Protecting me, guiding me with boundaries and providing me with wisdom. Neither of of my parents had much to really offer. As my priest once told me, in a discussion on letting go of anger and forgiving, "the did the best with what they had to give. Just a shame they had so little to offer." H had all that growing up. Maybe too much of it... to the point where negativity was ignored and conflict white washed over. Either way, H had something that was denied to me. A safe space to grow up. It may have been a wall with all its holes wallpapered over, but at least the walls were solid enough to protect him.

I have this weird belief that it is everyone's responsibility to come to know themselves, their own bullshit they bring and to make themselves aware of the pain of others. To be compassionate (where you can, don't let yourself be abused) to those acting out in pain. To want to understand before passing judgement. To judge people prudentially and not condemning them. Like, compassion for a shop lifter is to understand there's likely a compulsion (poverty, endorphin high junkie) driving them, and they're a hurt and disordered person. Prudence says you don't allow them to watch your shop while you go out for a smoke!

This is probably triggering to some BS's (why should I try to understand my WS's disordered nature? They abused me!). It's not so much a sense of particular or personal experience of having H understand the awful things I did before, during and after my affair. I guess what I'm really trying to get at is, I don't trust or respect a person who hasn't demonstrated a desire to understand those who are broken. I'm broken, so if that's how they treat other broken people, that's how they will treat me. Also, I don't trust or respect people who pass condemnation- especially those who don't bother to try and find humanity in an offender. Prudential judgement is one thing (don't let the shoplifter alone in your store!). Condemnation another (that thief is going to hell! Someone like that could NEVER change who they are! Once a thief, always a thief!). Not to be naïve myself and fail to be prudent in judging a person as unsafe for me to be around... but my distancing of myself from them doesn't have to come with a side of derision, spite, disrespect or arrogance either.

Which brings me all the way back to my mom. I understand her pain, I do know her story and I do have empathy for her. I have and am still open to her changing and becoming a better, safe person. HOWEVER, she's shown me who she is repeatedly and I have to exercise prudential judgement (not condemnation) and know that it's not safe right now for her to be in my life.

UGH! That was a long one! I got my money's worth today

*direct quote during MC where I nearly lost my shit on his ass and MC called him out on his shit for not taking my years of begging for MC seriously enough to do something about it.

Checking in again with another "being kind."

Weekend was difficult for H as he had triggers from father's day and A season is fast approaching.

PF Changs is one of his favorite restaurants and one near us is in his favorite mall. So, I reserved a table last night and we were able to walk around the mall with the kids before our reservation. We ended up in the store we bought our rings from. We are considering selling the old ones and getting new ones instead. The store we bought the old ones from will buy back the old ring at original value (if you spend more money on an upgrade ). The whole thing was a big trigger for him, and we really only looked because I like their jewelry, they're affiliated with a watch brand he really likes, and he wanted to check out the buy back program.

When we got home we had a really difficult discussion around our rings. I wore my rings all the time throughout our M, even during my A. That I was wearing a ring blessed and which I made a promise to H and to God to honor him all my life while having sex with AP absolutely shattered H. I really don't know how to make things better besides selling the old and getting new- starting over. Really makes sense as the A burns the old M down and if we R, we've got to start fresh. We talked through his hurt and pain... then got to mine.

H rarely wore his ring during our M- especially after the kids. He excused himself saying, "I would take it off to work out and forget to put it on," or, "we were always fighting and I didn't feel like wearing it." He then minimized the amount he didn't wear it saying that he at least wore it on all his business trips (he didn't- and several of the ones he left it behind on he flew through Amsterdam and would sight see in their "red light" district with his work buddies. I pointed out to him that he would wear the ring for 2-3 days, go work out and leave it down in the basement to gather dust for over 2-3 weeks.

The symbol of our love and promises that were BLESSED at our wedding... gathering cobwebs with dust and spiders because our M was difficult. What about better or for worse? That symbolized for me his attitude to our entire M.

I reminded him that I was in the same M with the same fights and the same hurt and still wore my rings every day. That the rings protected me (and him) from skeezy people going after us (at first at least), and wearing them was an important symbol of the promises we made each other and God. That since my dad at least wore his ring during his A's that I felt like our M meant less to H than my dad's did to my mom as H didn't hardly ever wear his. H countered that at work he didn't used to talk to any of the women and that they didn't really bother him. He kept his head down. That he was so overwhelmed with my depression and the kids' health and the finances and chaos at home that he didn't have the bandwidth to deal with anything. That if I had told him how much I struggled with it and how much it hurt me, of course he would have worn it. I DID tell him, repeatedly and BEGGED him to put effort into our M (through counseling or weekend retreats). If nothing changes, nothing changes. We were stuck because the added stress of fixing the M was too much for H to handle. So he decided it was easier just to not wear his ring and not have that reminder with him that he was married to me and having a crap M.

Over the years, this wore me down and contributed to my low self esteem and despair and feeling alone in the M. We would be going to prayer group and he would be talking about his "faith" and acting all spiritual with Deliah in their private conversations, meanwhile not giving a damn about the "blessed" object that symbolized his first spiritual calling in life and his promises to God.

So, when H brought up how my rings must have meant nothing to me during my A, I said he was right and how sorry I was. Then finished out his side of the conversation and turned it to how I had made the assumption that his vows meant little to him as he rarely wore his symbol of our M and his symbol of his promises to God. That the M must have meant so little to him as the ring certainly did. That's when the excuses and minimizing started. I pointed out that, "someone forgets to brush their teeth in the morning. You don't just FORGET to wear your wedding ring."

This morning, we continued the conversation. He brought up his "5 whys" (a QC technique to drill down on manufacturing or design errors)for why he didn't wear his ring. He listed, again, the failing M and the negativity from me and all the nagging and stress and burdens. I said, "right now I am hearing this all as excuses. I had my reasons- whys- for my A. In the end though, I have taken responsibility for it because it was MY decision. I understand you have whys for not wearing your ring. However, right now, to me, they sound like excuses. In the end you CHOSE not to wear your ring. This in turn led me to believe that the M meant little to you as the ring that was blessed by the priest you respect so much, was gathering dust in the basement." He got quite after that and apologized sincerely, looking me in the eyes. He promised that, "If I decided to do this again with you, I will wear my ring always." I thanked him. He went on to say that he doesn't know where we go from here.

I told him I don't need a new engagement ring, we're not getting engaged. Also, as he pointed out yesterday, it isn't really fair since I had an A and don't deserve to be "rewarded" with an upgraded ring. That we could sell our old sets, get new ones and put the extra in savings for his Audemar ($24k watch). He said that would help, but wouldn't really fix it... he's not sure.

So, we'll see. H is giving us 6 months to figure this out and he'll make a decision to D or not. He asked me the morning if I was stressed out about it. I told him I'm not really concerned by his timeline. That he's responsible for his decisions and I have already made mine to stick it out and work until God tells me otherwise. That I'm trusting more in His ways and His timing and feel at peace knowing He will direct me, so long as I ask Him before I make decisions or speak.

I also told him, when he hurt from the ups and downs from this weekend (there were several ups- I really did a good job making father's day the best I could for him), that it is good we are having the tough conversations. That yeah, there's a lot of hurt around our rings. BUT the only way out is through. That I would rather have the tough conversations than avoid them. That by having the tough conversations, I am investing in our relationship because I value it. If I didn't value it, why bother? H felt better about that. His family is SO AVOIDANT that any tough conversation is felt by him as a disaster, instead of a solution.

No way out except through. If nothing changes, nothing changes. I know I'm changing. Up to H to decide if he wants to be part of my life as a husband going forward.

I've read this thread often...and figured I would finally post on here .

MIgander...you have shown a lot of courage by posting the way you have . You are so right...if nothing changes...then nothing changes. It looks like YOU are putting through some changes that will HELP!

Being in south Louisiana...where the population is almost 80% Catholic...it is hard for me to understand that there is prejudice against the Catholic Church like you witnessed with your Aunt. There is SO MUCH of our state's past rooted in Catholicism...it is all over the place here. Heck...what other states have as "counties"...we have them as "parishes" here...and they are named after the Catholic parish churches that were started in that particular parish...such as St. John the Baptist Parish...etc. It truly is all about perspective!

My H told me this morning that I blame myself for things that are not even in my control. When he said this...I thought about this thread . We are dealing with a family issue that was made worse when Hurricane Ida hit. I pray every morning for God to USE me to HELP others...but it seems that the more I try to help in this issue...the worse things get . I have had to back off...which makes me feel like a failure . My H reminded me this morning that MAYBE what is happening is meant for someone else to step in and help. I never thought about it that way before.

I am coming up on the last week of A season for me too...where my H spent 6 of the last 7 days with the adultery co-conspirator...instead of the 2-3 times a week during the other times of his A. I let my emotions get the best of me last night. What started out as a very nice evening ended up with me turning my back on my H when we went to bed . This combination of family issues and A season is bringing up feelings from what was happening THEN.

This morning I woke up feeling a lot of shame for letting my emotions get the best of me . My H and I talked things through...and then he came up with that little nugget about me blaming myself...and I realized that has truth to it. I mean...I can't get ALL of the Blessings of HELPING others !!

Of course...God then corroborated what my H was telling me . One of our devotionals for our Bible Study is "The Word Among Us"...a Catholic devotional that I have on my phone . Part of today's meditation was written..."we don't have to fix everything and everyone around us. We can just try our best to serve Him and the people around us, and then peacefully leave the rest in His hands." WOW!!

Then my H made me a GREAT breakfast...one of my favorite comfort foods...oatmeal . He makes the BEST oatmeal !! It is time for me to treat ME like I would do anyone else who is in this same situation...I will be KIND . Thanks...AGAIN...for this thread .