SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think one of the reasons your wife keeps deflecting and trying to make you take some portion of the blame has to do with the abortion. If she accepts full responsibility for the affair, she has to own the fact her decisions led to an unplanned pregnancy and an abortion. That is a lot of shame to carry. I had an abortion as a teenager and have only just addressed my shame in therapy this year at 44 years old and that unplanned pregnancy came from a loving relationship not an affair.
I don't think your wife is ready or able to hold the shame of the affair and the abortion at the moment hence the defection.I don't know what the answer is I'm afraid, and I don't think her Shame should be allowed to minimise your pain, but I do know abortion is an extremely traumatic, shame inducing event.

One of the things that stood out to me is this:

Your quote:

She actually said to me "I don't have to do it your way" referring to reconciliation.

Unhinged said,

Your wife is determined to reconcile on her terms. Anyone and anything that challenges her preconceived ideas gets shot down.

GTM replied,

Yes, she does, lol.

LonelyGuilty replied,

And yes, healing and reconciliation should go your way!

First, I'm a BS who is happily reconciled after about 10 years. Our marriage was one of those that was doing poorly, and I had a part in that. We also had our troubles and disagreements with marital therapy before and after infidelity. I didn't go through what you are after infidelity, and I can't identify with it. Take my advice with that in mind.

Reconciliation does not "have to be done your way". Reconciliation does not "have to be done her way". It doesn't have to be done, but you should both agree with fundamentals to even start. I think that is what OldWounds is saying.

I'm betting you have already told her you will work on you, but if she still thinks the M caused her to run to another person -- she isn't safe.

It begs the question she needs to answer, what happens the next time she is angry with you and the M?

If she can't answer that she won't cheat again unequivocally, and any other answer than a definitive no is an implied affirmative that she might, then she is continuing to blame the marriage any use it as the justification. Do you still want marital therapy and to try reconciling knowing that? I wouldn't. Be aware that many people outside of SI do feel that a bad marriage is a perfectly logical justification for cheating. That might be why she doesn't like reading here.

BS at SI give often reason that WS's are mired in shame and guilt, and that's why they act the way they do and say what they say. I don't think all WS are. What if she is not? It is more logical to believe she honestly thinks what she is saying to you. Why assume it's deeper than that?

Your question is what to do. How will greyrocking her concerns serve you marriage, you, or her? I don't see it. You could agree that you disagree on whether the state of your marriage contributed to her affair and continue to try to resolve issues in your current marriage in therapy. Will that work for you? Will you feel save enough? Will it work for her? It sounds like she is the one who starts to go back to the old marriage.

It's a red flag to me that she feels put out and marginalized by the efforts she is making in the marriage, like calling you to talk and telling you her concerns. I mean, that's just normal marriage or friendship things that should make you both feel better and more comfortable if it goes well. Why is that "stuffing feelings" for her?

Evio
Thank you for being brave enough to comment about that. I appreciate your perspective on this. The shame of an affair, and the shame of an abortion. It's a double whammy on top of her already feeling bad from FOO issues and previous sexual traumas.

On my side it's hard because I am receiving the brunt of the fallout from this stuff when I had absolutely nothing to do with it. Not the sexual trauma. Not the affair. Not the abortion. Nothing. Yet I am the one she continues to lash out at, and for things that if true would be extremely minor compared to all this stuff. I just don't understand.

Ugg. Okay vent over.

If my wife is not ready to or able to hold the shame, what does that mean for our reconciliation? She seems stressed and overwhelmed all the time. It's been this way since D-day. The week before all fine. The week after permanent overwhelm it seems. It's so strange to me. This is part of the reason I was considering taking a break from talking about the affair. But if I did that I would want a set date to begin talking about it again, and I would want her to see an affair recovery specialist.

To clarify, when I said "yes, she does [need to do it your way]" that's keeping in mind that she supposedly wants reconciliation, and that Theevent's "way" is her taking accountability for her own choices and doing the internal work on herself to fix that which allowed her poor choices.

It's easy enough to cheat and afterwards say that you'll never do it again. A WS might even genuinely believe they won't ever do it again as they promise it to their BP and/or to themselves. I know as a repeat offender myself, I've certainly been there, and my most recent incidents are 5 whole years apart. It doesn't matter what she says about whether she'll "resort" to infidelity again when the marriage gets bad, because the only answer that's compatible with reconciliation is "No," AND that "No" has to come with "And here's what I'm doing to ensure I don't do it again."

Because without doing that internal work, what is there to stop a WS from committing infidelity again when the same circumstances from the first time prevent themselves? Making boundaries like, "I'll distance myself from anyone I start feeling too interested in" is one thing, and it's easy enough to do, but it doesn't address 1) why you're developing interest in other people in the first place, and 2) how you're going to hold yourself to that boundary in the pits of temptation and marital troubles. Wasn't that what the WS was supposed to do the first time, and failed to do? Something fundamental has to change for Theevent's WW to become a safe partner. That's why she needs to do it "his" way.

With regard to the grey rocking... I'm not suggesting he avoid listening to her when she voices the marital troubles. He can say, "I hear your concerns, and we can work on those things after we recover from your infidelity," and that's both acknowledgment of them and a promise to work on them eventually, while re-centering the need to work through the betrayal first. I am suggesting that he goes stoney, calls a time out, and politely exits the conversation whenever she begins to blame shift, starts to argue with him, or does the thing where she needs everything to feel equal. Because Theevent is not to blame, that's not something he should accept or even entertain arguments over, and things are most definitely not equal, nor are they going to feel that way for a long time. The grey rocking is a tool for asserting his boundaries here, keeping things peaceable, and sending the message "This is what I need from you, and I'm not willing to accept less. The more you fight me about taking responsibility, the more likely it is I will need to detach further to be safe, and our reconciliation will eventually fail if it continues that way." It's not a threat, it's just a reality that she needs to understand. And saying it with words alone is not doing the trick.

Good insight on the abortion-related shame, Evio.

Edited to fix italics

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 4:09 PM, Monday, June 1st]

The abortion is probably quite traumatic to her. Did you know at the time? That has to be difficult for her. I'm not familiar with what any of that feels like.

To clarify, when I said "yes, she does [need to do it your way]" that's keeping in mind that she supposedly wants reconciliation, and that Theevent's "way" is her taking accountability for her own choices and doing the internal work on herself to fix that which allowed her poor choices.

It's easy enough to cheat and afterwards say that you'll never do it again.

Ok. I'm saying that she also has the right to say that she will not reconcile any other way than under her terms as Unhinged stated. She can do that. She can stand her ground. It's acceptable. Theevent can agree or disagree to those terms.

Obviously a WS can say whatever, but their follow-up words and actions are the indicators of what they actually think. That is obvious with Theevent's wife saying that she takes responsibility and then immediately lashing out and blaming him in arguments. That is why some here are advocating that Theevent detaches and observes.

Theevent —

I love her and doing a 180 would hurt her a lot, especially when she feels like she is trying so hard. I can't do a 180 and also claim I'm trying to reconcile.

I agree — I think the 180 is for someone who isn’t trying at all.

I think your wife has remorse, she is just afraid to go all in — because she wants the balance back in the M without knowing how to get there. She thinks if she owns all her choices AND your pain, she will be unforgivable. As I said before, no one wants to be the villain of their own life story.

And I don’t think all WS are villains, I think that is how the most defensive among the early recovering WS see themselves.

The empathy question is still out there — her willingness to try and understand the trauma she caused with her choices.

If she simply agrees to try and feel your pain and/or help you heal the M from that perspective, you will have a hand hold or something to work with.

You’re not asking her to feel bad, you’re asking her to help YOU not feel bad.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 5:18 PM, Monday, June 1st]

Is there any possibility of taking a physical break rather than just a break from talking about the affair? If you were not around to able to take the brunt of her anger and shame, she would eventually have to face it herself. You're right you don't deserve to deal with the fallout from all of her decisions and previous trauma. A break could be good for you too.

GotTheMorbs

It's easy enough to cheat and afterwards say that you'll never do it again. A WS might even genuinely believe they won't ever do it again as they promise it to their BP and/or to themselves. I know as a repeat offender myself, I've certainly been there, and my most recent incidents are 5 whole years apart. It doesn't matter what she says about whether she'll "resort" to infidelity again when the marriage gets bad, because the only answer that's compatible with reconciliation is "No," AND that "No" has to come with "And here's what I'm doing to ensure I don't do it again."

This is the part I'm concerned about. This affair was not the first time something like this has happened. The first one was a MUCH less intense emotional only affair, and was long ago, but they both follow the same pattern.

In both cases she was unhappy and another person was her solution to this problem.

KitchenDepth5551

The abortion is probably quite traumatic to her. Did you know at the time? That has to be difficult for her. I'm not familiar with what any of that feels like.

Yes I'm sure it was traumatic for her. And thats one more connection to her AP she had. He supported her through that traumatic event.

I did not know.

At the time she was having a "very heavy period", and was very emotional. She came to me one day sobbing saying she was a bad person. I did my best to comfort her, but it was very confusing for me and I had no idea why she might be saying those things. I had no idea what she had done. The thought of her cheating on me, getting pregnant, and then having an abortion was completely alien to me. When she told me on D-day I had a hard time believing it. This woman who I trusted completely not only betrayed me by having an affair but also had sex without protection, got pregnant, and had an abortion?! Wow. Blindsided in the extreme.

Oldwounds

I think your wife has remorse, she is just afraid to go all in — because she wants the balance back in the M without knowing how to get there. She thinks if she owns all her choices AND your pain, she will be unforgivable. As I said before, no one wants to be the villain of their own life story.

I think you are right on here.

Evio

I think a physical break is exactly the opposite of what we need right now. A physical break is similar to the 180, and is more appropriate for a WS who is not doing the work or who is constantly making life hard.

In our case life is pretty good until we need to talk about the affair, or any situation comes up where she gets defensive. Then it's back to this old pattern. These difficult emotions are always laying in wait under the surface ready to spring out and do more damage. Thats whats concerning me. I'm concerned that she is going to continue blaming me and other things instead of taking a good hard look at herself.

As other people have said, the WS can do whatever they want and I don't have to accept it. Thats not the question though. The question is, will she actually do what I am asking her to do? Or will this be like HTHYSHFYA's option #4 a drawn out blood letting of the marriage instead of option #5 real healing, and how would I know which one I'm in?

Thats whats concerning me. I'm concerned that she is going to continue blaming me and other things instead of taking a good hard look at herself.

As other people have said, the WS can do whatever they want and I don't have to accept it. Thats not the question though. The question is, will she actually do what I am asking her to do? Or will this be like HTHYSHFYA's option #4 a drawn out blood letting of the marriage instead of option #5 real healing, and how would I know which one I'm in?

At this moment in time, your answer seems to be that she is not willing or able to do what you asking of her. That may change in time. What will you accept of her? That is a question for you right. Not for her, for you. What will you do? Right now, what will you do? You can't answer her questions. You can only answer your own.

She thinks if she owns all her choices AND your pain, she will be unforgivable. As I said before, no one wants to be the villain of their own life story.

I think Oldwounds just elucidated what I was trying to say about her ego protecting itself.

I don't doubt you when you say she's trying. It seems to me, however, that all of her efforts are designed to avoid digging deep into her "whys" and unlearning some untruths about herself. It's performanative, window dressing, and surface level. She needs to keep peeling back those onion layers and getting to the roots of her own issues.

It seems as if she doesn't want to do that, which is terribly unfortunate because it's the essence of reconciliation.

Theevent -

Reading through the thread, one of your responses jumped out at me:

I keep pushing to feel safe, and she keeps pushing back, and complaining that I can never be satisfied.

Ah yes, if I had a dollar for every time a WS said this, I would be able to purchase a professional sports franchise.

That is extremely common and a horrible deflection and/or redirect -- putting the responsibility of saving the M on YOU.

As in, as soon as you're all good with this, the M will be ready to rock on.

Back to the truth is self-evident stuff.

I get her claim in regards to her early trauma, or current trauma, it could have been 'drugs or alcohol, but took the form of infidelity' in this case.

Okay, grant that.

You would have been harmed by her actions in ANY of those cases.

You are harmed by infidelity.

What is she willing to work on to help understand and heal the harm she caused (even if she claims your damage is inadvertent)?

What will her starting point be, other than saying, "Yes, I caused you pain."

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 10:14 PM, Monday, June 1st]

I'm concerned that you want to one of the couples that Rs.

I'm all for R when the couple does the work. I'm all for D when one or both of the partners won't do the work. I see neither option as being better than the other, except in specific cases. I'm as certain as I can be that R was best for me. I'm as certain as I can be that D is best for some. As for you ... I know you'd have an easier time with a W who found remorse and honesty long ago, and if your W does find those soon, she can become a great candidate for R, but she's not a great or even good candidate now.

She's not here. You are. I care about you, and I think that's true for all of us. I'm writing to say that you need to consider that you may be co-dependent, that your desire for R is unhealthy. Have you talked that through in IC?

I believe you're doing OK. I believe you've chosen a course mindfully.

But you say you won't do a 180 because it will hurt your W. I think that's an assumption, and assumptions are part and parcel of co-d.

Besides, you need to focus on yourself and your needs. No one will speak for you if you don't speak for yourself. Your W is taking care of her unhealthy needs. You need to take care of your needs, healthy and unhealthy, but I hope you'll go for your healthy needs more and more as time goes on.

Repeating requests to your W to make changes that will benefit her more than anyone else and not imposing sanctions can look to your W a lot like pick-me.

The 180 is for you. It's unfortunate if it hurts your W, but you know that's not its purpose. The 180 may be just what you need.

Oldwounds

That is extremely common and a horrible deflection and/or redirect -- putting the responsibility of saving the M on YOU.

I agree with this. Unfortunately it's difficult to put it into words that I can bring to a therapy session. When I complain that I don't feel safe, our therapist asks what I need to feel safe. I have a difficult time articulating that other than "don't do this, don't do that, etc.". I can say do this, or don't do that, and she will add it to her checklist, do it and check it off saying "see I did the thing you wanted!". If I don't feel like it satisfied me, or something else is needed, then suddenly I'm moving the goal posts.

What will her starting point be, other than saying, 'Yes, I caused you pain.'

If I asked her what her that she would get very offended and hurt and complain that she has been doing the best she can for two years, and that she doesn't know how much longer can sustain this effort. She would list all of the things she is doing - and she is doing a lot. She would complain that I'm not doing things for her, and that this relationship feels one sided. Etc. Etc. Her self defense mechanisms would kick in and instead of seeing humility I would see what I* have been seeing - anger, resentment, bitterness, rage, etc.

I know because I have said things like this several times before. Each time it's the same.

sisoon

I'm writing to say that you need to consider that you may be co-dependent, that your desire for R is unhealthy. Have you talked that through in IC?

You could be right. Unfortunately I will have to find a new IC if I want to dig into this with someone. My current IC is now "our" IC, and even though he is great for emergencies, and to vent to, he strongly pushes R, and I don't know if that kind of conversation would be useful with him.

The 180 may be just what you need.

Maybe in the future this will be the route I take. Believe me I have seriously considered it several times. But right now I just can't bring myself to it. Not while she is making effort. If she is trying I will continue to try as well.

The real issue for me is the strange cognitive dissonance I find myself in. We can spend an entire therapy session arguing and fighting back and forth. Then the next day we will "make up" and things will be mostly good until our next discussion/session where we will again fight and argue. I'm realizing now that she is pretty messed up emotionally, and any time she feels shame, guilt, blame, anger, etc. The other part of her brain takes over and she goes into super defense mode. This is the pattern we have been stuck in for two years. When she is not in that mode, she can calmly consider, she can listen, she can adjust (even if it's just performative), but once she gets triggered thats it. Productive conversation over.

Let me illustrate this cognitive dissonance: I'm having a hard time since Thursday as I have described in this thread. That hasn't stopped me from being kind to her, or doing things for her. That hasn't stopped me from wanting to be with her. For example she just texted me saying we should do lunch. I am happy that she reached out, and excited to do lunch even though I'm frustrated by her actions whenever we discuss our relationship. I see her invite as her attempt at repairing the damage our fighting did. But in the back of my mind I'm thinking about how she acted in therapy, and how those feelings emotions are boiling just under the surface, and that makes me feel unsafe.

I know I have explicitly rejected leaving, grey rocking, or doing the 180, and thats because I'm not ready to go to that level yet. In my other thread several people commented that staying is not logic based, it's emotional. And thats why I can't do the 180, or leave at this time. I'm not emotionally there, and I know if I try something like that without being fully emotionally ready it's going to backfire and likely hurt me more. Worst case scenario I will fold and go back to her without getting things resolved. Then things will be much worse because she will see me as someone who can't back their words up.

I want to give this reconciliation every chance. I don't want to look back and say to myself I left to early, or I could have done more. I also don't want to look back and say "wow I should have left much earlier". It really is a balancing act, and quite difficult to navigate.

My goal in this thread is to hopefully identify some action steps I can take to help resolve the situation, and also to get perspective and insight to understand myself and her better.

In previous threads people have commented that I can't make her change. I can't make her want to dig into this stuff, and it was suggested that I need to give her time and allow her to do this on her own since it's really a personal journey that I have no control over any way.

I get that, and since I'm not ready to leave, do the 180, or gray rock it, my options seem limited. I could be very explicit with my requests. I could make a list with items like like:

"No more blaming me for past relationship issues"

But she has an answer for everything, and she would just say "this relationship feels one sided. I'm helping you with your issues and you aren't helping me with mine". Every thing I would put on the list she would either counter with an item of her own to make sure it's "balanced", or she would do but only for performances sake.

The option I'm leaning towards right now is to tell her I want her to meet with an affair recovery group, and pause our couples therapy sessions. In a group like this I would feel much more confident that she is getting quality information. She might be able to hear it better because it would be coming from real people in real time rather than from a book, and there is a social aspect to it. She is a big people pleaser, and very social so it will be hard for her to reject actual people like she might reject a book, or article or what not.

But I don't know. Are there any other options I'm missing? Is there a better way to handle this situation?

Are there any other options I'm missing? Is there a better way to handle this situation?

I think you’re on the edge of understanding that your future will be full of resentment if you don’t see some changes that make you feel safe.

In your counseling session, you mentioned things that your wife can check off a list — that’s not how safe works.

Again, infidelity does harm.

You can heal you, but you cannot heal the M by yourself.

You can handle things backwards, and try to move on as if nothing happened.

That is the path, if you cannot call her out on ANYTHING about her choices to damage the M.

It may work ass backwards.

But my R was based on my wife owning her end first. Then I absolutely owned my end and made certain my wife feels like she earned her way back to a real, balanced M. I wouldn’t want an M where my wife walks around feeling horrible or less than. But the person who stepped OUT of the M clearly has to do some heavier lifting FIRST (at least to me).

Whatever you did wrong pre-A doesn’t come close to the damage caused by an A. It ain’t even in the same ballpark. If your wife doesn’t see that or doesn’t care about that, I got nothing.

She is right, she doesn’t have to own anything, but if there is no empathy for the pain she caused you, again, I can see that turning into resentment from you at some point.