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I don't think a BS really cares about right and wrong,after one dday,let alone a 4th dday. Many want to lash out, and hurt and stop the hurting.

It still doesn't make it right. Yes, we are traumatized after DDAY, but we still have a choice and accountability in our responses.

[This message edited by landclark at 8:03 AM, May 3rd (Monday)]

I didn't say it was right. I said many BS don't care about right,or wrong.

So many BS have thought about a RA, that there have been a few dozen threads, at least,about it over the last few years. We have very few BS on here who actually went through with it. So the threat is normal, the actual act is rare.

Why are so many people disregarding the fact that this BH has been given FOUR ddays,and has been traumatized over and over?

So many here have completely minimized this man's pain. And,the truth is, you have no right to do so.

None.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:30 AM, May 3rd (Monday)]

Count me in the group of "Thought of it...told him I wanted to but never did"

One hundred percent agree with Hellfire. Not only the minimization of his pain the weaponization of it as well.

he is hurt and reacting so therefore he must a dangerous man(she was told to keep a var with her) who is wanting to steal her children(she offered him full custody) who must obviously be having an affair because he knew about the important details(important details as deemed by others who are not him) and he married OP anyway.

There was as a level of character assination on this thread that was shocking. This man is not reacting ANY differently than any other BS. NONE. He is textbook reacting to trauma and for people to use that against him...well that's sad.

Its like telling someone the EA thier spouse had shouldn't hurt as much because it wasn't physical.

I have read the other thread now.

While I am not in a place to judge how people react or what is traumatic for another person, I do find some of his reaction to be not in alignment with what has happened.

Bascially, this woman had two affairs. In the first affair, it was physical. Both were conducted before marriage.

The second one doesn't even seem to be a point of contention. It seems it was fully disclosed and not really anything that they are fighting about now.

I know of another scenario in which the man pushed his wife really hard about an affair that happened in the past before marriage. This was after years of not talking about it. She confessed it to be physical (which was already established here, but wasn't in their case), and it turned out he wanted to vindicate himself because he was carrying on an emotional affair with a workmate that he wanted to turn physical.

Is this the same? No idea. None. Is this a possible scenario? Yes, very possible.

I look at the others on this site who have found out about a long ago affair. They are traumatized no doubt. But the disclosure here wasn't an affair, it was a sexual act of the affair. A common sexual act, nothing even unusual that happened.

Maybe the OP can tell us what created this last disclosure so many years later?

I am not saying she should have lied to him for all those years. But, he knew there was a sexual affair? There is something very odd about this situation that I don't think we know and we may never know.

I agree, it's common for BS's to think about having an affair of their own. It's maybe a bit less common to tell the WS that's what they want to do to get over it. But, this is the second time I know of that we could have someone who pushed for another admission because they wanted to have an affair of their own.

I don't think that's villainizing the BS. I think it's something for her to at least have her antennae up on but not accuse him of it. As that will make the situation worse. I don't know about you all, but I sure would have liked someone to give me that heads up. I don't get why this is a heated debate at all. Especially since the OP does not feel anything is going on, and so there is really noone to convince of it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:45 PM, May 3rd (Monday)]

The minimization of this man's feelings is mind blowing.

Now his reaction to a sex act is being minimized...because is a "run of the mill' sex act. Not for many others either.

how dismissive. I can assure you that if my husband performed oral sex on another woman then came home and kissed me and I found out years later...Yeah I would be pissed.

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 2:28 PM, May 3rd (Monday)]

Dup post

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 2:26 PM, May 3rd (Monday)]

Prissy and HF, you have spent a lot of time on both threads arguing with anybody who doesn't agree with you. You offered your points of view and others have offered theirs. It's up to the OP to decide what to do with that. Yours and others continued attempts to discredit anybody who doesn't agree with you though by claiming biases (which we ALL possess) or character assassination, etc., is getting somewhat tiresome now. A lot of us here are also betrayed spouses, so I think we do actually have a point of reference for what it feels like to be betrayed and the resulting thoughts and actions.

Your opinion isn't right simply because you believe it is, and others opinions are not wrong simply because you don't agree with it.

Prissy -

It's not so much that. It's that we are fighting bias with bias on this thread.

We don't know. We just don't. There are some things in this post and the other one that leads me to believe there is and has always been am off balanced power dynamic between these two people. Maybe because she cheated early on, maybe not.

But the reality is not all BS's are the same. We do not know hers, but there are red flags here. I do not know why it's not okay for some people to have a different bias, we are all operating from a lot of lacking information. Saying something sounds fishy is not an attack. We have had WS who have been in long term abusive marriages and we have given them terrible advice. We have had WS's who have been in wonderful marriages that claim abuse.

We all operate out of our own experience and intuition. And, my intuition is triggered on some of these things that seem awfully familiar to me. That doesn't mean I am attacking her BS, stating things as a fact, or any of that.

I generally find this to be detracting from what she should be focusing on, however, and that is herself. Her own work. I just have a sneaking suspicion if she does that work this marriage may stop looking as good to her. I am taking that from context in how she is looking at this entire situation.

Please do not condemn others for having a different opinion than you. It's really detracting from the thread. And to be honest, this thread really says a lot less than the one I didn't read to begin with. Most of it's over there. This thread should be cut and dry - No she should not allow a rebuttal affair. Period. The fact that she is even considering it so strongly speaks volumes about the place this relationship is in and probably always has been in. As does the fact she would be planning to give custody at a time when 50/50 is more and more common.

Lastly, this:

I can assure you that if my husband performed oral sex on another woman then came home and kissed me and I found out years later...Yeah I would be pissed.

I did not read that happened? That doesn't seem to be a detail here. Did I miss it?

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:11 PM, May 3rd (Monday)]

I can assure you that if my husband performed oral sex on another woman then came home and kissed me and I found out years later...Yeah I would be pissed.

Yeah this didn't happen in my relationship. The night I gave OM oral I was not living with BH. I actually didn't see my BH for about a week or so after. It still does not make what I did okay and the lies made it all worse.

The minimization of this man's feelings is mind blowing

I agree with this.

So many BS have thought about a RA, that there have been a few dozen threads, at least,about it over the last few years. We have very few BS on here who actually went through with it. So the threat is normal, the actual act is rare.

Why are so many people disregarding the fact that this BH has been given FOUR ddays,and has been traumatized over and over?

So many here have completely minimized this man's pain. And,the truth is, you have no right to do so.

I hope he won't follow through with it. And yes it was my lies that caused him to have multiple DDays. I understand his pain and I'm not undermining his pain.

Maybe the OP can tell us what created this last disclosure so many years later?

BH would ask about EA one or twice a year since it happened and I would get defensive. Last September BH "cornered" me and I told him a little more info and that just spiraled. And now we are here.

I saw the responses that said I was going with a burn the witch approach. I wasn't.

I saw this WW as IamTrash was when she first showed up. She knew a bit about what the pain her BH was going through, but he feels powerless.

This threat of RA is to see if he can force his WW to make moves towards a safe partner. If it isn't she still needs to think this is possible. He might be at the end of trying.

So, as I said, go with the delay position if you can and try to understand if you loved/love your husband, why being safe is so tough? Why being open is tough?

The usual Why's conversation. IC should close off the self esteem issues and make 15 years feel less afraid in the marriage. More willing to own the marriage and her half, plus the A's. Then she can get him into MC and they can work through how to talk and he can drop any lies he is holding onto.

So, as I said, go with the delay position if you can and try to understand if you loved/love your husband, why being safe is so tough? Why being open is tough?

The usual Why's conversation. IC should close off the self esteem issues and make 15 years feel less afraid in the marriage. More willing to own the marriage and her half, plus the A's. Then she can get him into MC and they can work through how to talk and he can drop any lies he is holding onto.

I did start IC and BH is very supportive with this. With our opposite working hours and having younger kiddos it makes it difficult for me to get out of the house as needed. BH is more than willing to sacrifice his sleep for my IC appts.

And BH isn't opposed to doing MC but at the moment he wants me to focus on IC. Plus moneys comes into play... I'm currently only able to work part time and I want to be able to pay for all our IC/MC. BH understands my desire to be financially responsible for all the counseling. And it has been 100% my choice to go to IC.

I haven't brought up BH wanting to have a RA in a few days or so ... But it is still weighing on my shoulders. As it should...I do not believe it's my BH responsibility to comfort me through these times. He is aware of my thoughts and nightmares I've been having.

I generally find this to be detracting from what she should be focusing on, however, and that is herself. Her own work. I just have a sneaking suspicion if she does that work this marriage may stop looking as good to her. I am taking that from context in how she is looking at this entire situation.

Ummm... Food for thought. But I have been with BH for just about 16 years now. And outside of my PA/EA our relationship/marriage has been amazing. I know I can't dismiss or down play my betrayal and I'm not doing that... I'm just thinking about the times BH and I have had together just the two of us and as a family with kids. We have the same goals for life both daily and long term.

I do believe someone said something about power in the relationship.... And this is the old fashion me who spent a lot of time with a southern grandma I like that he and I come to an agreement before big decisions. I'm not confident in making big purchases. Even before we got married BH guided me when I got my first car. I made the final choice but I honestly couldn't have gone through the car buying process without him. At one point in time during the process he saved me from making an emotional desicion and saved my ass from buy a car that wasn't really wise.

I do look to my BH for advice and guidance on a lot. And he doesn't make big life or financial choices without talking to me. And even to this day we are doing this.

Please stay focused and get back on topic of supporting the OP.

The minimization of this man's feelings is mind blowing

I agree with this.

Okay, I can understand that. Noone can judge his response. I get that. I have a hard time following that he knew there was a sexual affair all this time but the BJ has sent him into this big of a spiral.

Prissy used the word "Pissed". Yep, definitely I understand why he would be pissed, hurt, etc. I am not saying he should not have ANY response. That would be ridiculous.

But so traumatized that after 16 years of this amazing marriage you are talking about custody and permission for 6 month affairs? That seems incongruent to me. If the affair had been undisclosed completely that would make more sense.

When you look at those things, I wonder two things:

1. Why did you disclose right now, was he pushing you on it? Edited to add: I see I missed your answer. Sorry!

2. Perhaps your shame of what you did 16 years ago keeps you more docile than spending time with your southern grandma? Or maybe he is older than you? I too have had a really great marriage. I still believe that I have up until the cheating. But, after a lot of therapy I can see I defered to him about everything. My shame and the age difference put us in a different power dynamic. I see it present in your relationship.

Understand, my husband has been a good man. He's not some male chauvinist person. A good deal of the role I have played in our marriage was because of me and my interior workings. Tell me about the last conflict you guys had that you initiated prior to this? Do you hear crickets? I would have.

Part of our journey is to learn to love yourself. It's my belief that you holding this secret has created such a guilt that has created the power dynamic. I further think part of him knows this. I think my husband understood that as well.

Keep in mind that my husband cheated back, so there could very well be projection. But, you come across in all these messages as a meek person presenting much younger than your years.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:27 AM, May 4th (Tuesday)]

I have a couple of book suggestions for you.

I would read Rising Strong By Brene Brown. I think it will help you to realize you have been operating in shame for the past 16 years.

My marriage had been easy and our goals had been aligned too. But, when I look back some of that is because I wasn't fully showing up. I was deferring to him. And, he got very used to that. Part of the fix here is something my husband didn't love, and probably your husband won't either. You have to start showing up rather than keeping the peace. This life is your journey too. I have been considering a tattoo that says "I am mine". Seems like a simple concept, but I never want to forget that again.

The other books that you might find helpful is anything by Pema Chadron, and I also like "The Power of Now" by Eckhardt Tolle. That second one is a hard read, you are probably not in a place to do that one yet. But, some of his podcasts are good as well, especially when it comes to debunking our own thinking.

The most troubling thing of all to me is this statement you just made:

I hope he won't follow through with it. And yes it was my lies that caused him to have multiple DDays. I understand his pain and I'm not undermining his pain

Yes, you do need to take accountability for the lies, multiple ddays. Yes. BUT this "I hope he doesn't" underlines just about everything I have said to you.

There is a lot to unpack, you have ammends to make. I do not want to understate that. But, if the ammends include having to abide by being cheated on, that's very misguided. Your husband didn't deserve to be cheated on. Guess what? Neither do you. This is a hard boundary I really implore you to make. Even if this isn't something he is setting up to be able to do, it doesn't matter the reason. It's 100 percent going to be more damaging to him, to you, to your marriage. It's an irrational solution that you should not support nor condone. If he goes through with it, he needs to be required to be put in IC to address healthy coping.

After my husbands affair, I have put a lot of requirements on him. He had to have an STD panel, a poly, go to IC and figure out his whys. ALL the same rigors I was willing to do for my affair. Is it punishment? Absolutely not. I need to know moving forward the things that caused him to go to that response have been dealt with. I am not asking him to do something I didn't do myself.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:40 AM, May 4th (Tuesday)]

I am sorry for so many posts, one last thing. There is one thing I definitely see in all this is your remorse. You are doing a lot of things RIGHT. Being in IC (which I think that's what should happen. MC can't fix the individuals here, that should be a later down the road thing), paying for it yourself, you have the right spirit of a rebuilder.

If I have given you any criticism, it comes from learning these things about myself. I see myself quite a lot in you.

I did start IC and BH is very supportive with this. With our opposite working hours and having younger kiddos it makes it difficult for me to get out of the house as needed. BH is more than willing to sacrifice his sleep for my IC appts.

And BH isn't opposed to doing MC but at the moment he wants me to focus on IC. Plus moneys comes into play... I'm currently only able to work part time and I want to be able to pay for all our IC/MC. BH understands my desire to be financially responsible for all the counseling. And it has been 100% my choice to go to IC.

I see that he is supportive and you are making the right moves. I think you are still holding yourself back a bit, which is why HO is suggesting that Rising Strong book.

You are the underdog in this movie. Trust that you rising will be more climactic and that you just need to believe in yourself.

Now to the RA. This is some of the first I have heard where there are young kids and tight work schedules. Having an affair is tough and it sounds like your BH is more invested in this marriage than you give him credit for.

He probably had a trigger and was suggesting this because he felt like you haven't healed yet. Seeing how hard it has hit you kind of shows he is right.

See his threat as real, because he probably has considered it, but as a good dad and busy husband, he is probably feel the weight of life crushing him. I am glad you are appreciating him watching the kids while you get through your past.

I think maybe talk to him about why you felt sexually closed off to your BH for the last 16 years. I know my wife needed to talk to her IC about that. She never covered it until I forced the situation. Then a whole pile of body shame after kids, self doubt due to unachieved life goals, performance anxiety due to age, and stupid religious guilty came tumbling out. I bet you have a pile of a couple of those in there, plus others.

Don't let IC be surface crap you survived through. Then feel a little better and walk out whistling counting down, until you feel cured. I see so many people get stuck trying to get the approval of a therapist. Get deep and open up. Cry. Talk about fears while letting it all out.

HikingOut,

Wow you have given me a lot of food for thought. I love B. Brown I'll definitely look into her book. I listened to her tedtalk and other things I have found from her.

Tell me about the last conflict you guys had that you initiated prior to this? Do you hear crickets? I would have.

Yes crickets!! I hate conflict and tend to shy away or RUN AWAY.

Thank you do much for advice I really appreciate it.

hikingout

Okay, I can understand that. Noone can judge his response. I get that. I have a hard time following that he knew there was a sexual affair all this time but the BJ has sent him into this big of a spiral.

I haven't been following this thread and I don't know if my response is going to be relevant, but I was reading through the last page and I wanted to share my insight with regard to this in particular as my ex wife's BJ got under my skin (the context was important).

So, my ex never really gave me BJ's. She altogether stopped after an incident. My ex and a married couple were out at a restaurant getting something to eat. The wife of the other couple starts talking about BJs and gets derogatory towards her husband (they had a horrible relationship and are now divorced). My ex chimes in but in a vague way (not mentioning me exactly).

We get home and I bring it up and she gas lights me. Says she didn't say anything. After that incident she stopped any remote BJs and said she did because I got offended and said she had said something. This was unprovoked and when we were about to get intimate.

When D Day occurred she said she gave the OM plenty of BJs.

Needless to say, even though BJs aren't a radically different act, sometimes the context of the pain is what matters.

That's not lost on me, Lostone. I can understand why this man is upset about finding out 16 years ago, while still dating his wife she had continued having sex with this man. Which was disclosed at the time. It makes sense that because she never gave him BJ's until recent years that he feels upset about recently finding out about this one single blow job this guy got 16 years ago. I am stating that just matter of fact since you said you didn't read the post. Please do not read sarcasm in what I just wrote.

What I was really trying to say, is that her husband is talking divorce to the extent of custody and wanting to have a 6 month RA over a blowjob she gave 16 years ago in an affair that she had disclosed to him prior to marriage.

I understand this is a dday and she lied about it. I don't discount that. I don't expect it was pleasant for him to find this out, and I understand how he would be very upset But, I don't think it packs the same wallop as an undisclosed affair 16 years ago would. I could be completely wrong, and that's okay. But, if you read over both of these strings there is something not right about the situation. I don't know what it is, but read it all and then see if you see what I am saying.

I see a woman who had an affair 16 years ago as a 21 year old dating her husband. I see a woman who has never gotten past her shame of what she did and is filled with remorse. And, I see a woman who is desperately trying to hang in there to the extent she is entertaining letting him have a 6 month affair with no ramifications. She has offered him full custody of their children at a time where it's 50/50. I don't discount the merits of the upset he feels and the TT he has endured. All I am saying is there is an incongruent reaction and situation that is taking place in the aftermath.

Now, I do regret some of my speculations. We do not know what is happening, there are a lot of fill in the blanks. I do regret accusing him of something that may not be true. But, at the same time, I am not sure how to express how lopsided this relationship is and how irrational the request is that he get a 6 month affair for one blowjob she gave during a disclosed sexual affair that happened 16 years ago. I can't see it. And, that's the last I will comment on that aspect out of respect for 15yearsinthemaking. I want her to focus on what she needs to focus on, and it's not this.

What I was really trying to say, is that her husband is talking divorce to the extent of custody and wanting to have a 6 month RA over a blowjob she gave 16 years ago in an affair that she had disclosed to him prior to marriage.

I have to say, the straw the broke the camel's back is really a true thing. It may not just be about a bj... it may be that this was just the final straw that caused him to want to quit trying.

When you're told a million times that there is nothing else and find something else a million and one times... you just can't leave yourself vulnerable to being told, once again, "There's nothing else."

This always makes me think of Charlie Brown trying to kick the football with Lucy... one day he's not going to give her the chance to hold it anymore.