SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi, I suppose my question is really for WS, so it might be mis-posted, but here goes:
Over the last few months, my WH has encountered people through work who have lied very brazenly to him and then been discovered to have lied. His attitude to them is contemptuous, and he has even said that he will not be able to trust them again because of their lies.
This obviously has lead me, as a listener, to think: ‘I sincerely hope you realise the irony of what you are saying.’ I have waggled my eyebrows meaningfully at these times and did, once, raise the irony directly. (Our discussions occurred when we were getting on really well and I was not particularly triggered). His view is that he made a terrible error that he has learned from but isn’t in the same league…
I think that he now thinks he is back on track as an honest person, but I suppose I would like to know if he is not making any connection with the deceitful behaviour of others and his own months of elaborately constructed deceptions and blatant lying to direct questions.
Not quite sure what my question is… just: can WS be this unaware? Do I need to point it out explicitly?

I have absolutely experienced this with my partner almost daily due to his job! And he will so brazenly discuss situations of a similar nature where someone he knows lies and the company can no longer trust someone like that and many many other scenarios to that effort both work, and personal people he knows …. 🙄 like you I’ve rolled my eyes and I can feel my energy tense and give off a harshness but he doesn’t pick up on this change.

He also will sometimes very ignorantly discuss other people who have had an affair, or if we’re watching a show and it happens he’ll make a comment, as if he’s forgotten he’s been that person (for years) it’s very strange and I think this just shows how people’s brains work for their own narrative in the sense that they compartmentalise so much they lose sense of reality.

I feel like it’s so dangerous for someone to have such a lack of empathy?? But I’m in a negative headspace right now so I could just be projecting.

Anyway I hear you, you’re not alone with this.

Thank you. I think our spouses might have similar jobs!
Totally what you say. The same has gone for infidelity on tv, as you say. He even says judgmental things out loud.
Love your tag line: absolutely.

I can definitely relate and I am also curious to see if any WSes respond. This is one of our most frequent fights. For us it is not always about lying, more often it is about being immoral, but sometimes lying. He will go on and on and on about how certain people do unethical things. He will say how could they possibly do that? I can get through the first time he asks it…but then it goes on and on. He just can’t believe people make immoral choices. Every time I am eventually left speechless with my jaw dropping down. Finally he ends up saying he realizes this must sound hypocritical. But, he thinks he has become a better person. I mean yeah you’re better but like glass houses and all that.

In some ways this is one of the few areas where I find the cheating has been beneficial. He used to get very holier than thou and there was no convincing him that other people were not bad (presumably when compared to good people like him). He was in general a very ethical person (again irony) but I find it annoying when people are holier than thou even if they are good people.

Now he has at least some insight. He catches himself and acknowledges the irony. But it doesn’t stop him from walking straight down the same path the following week. I think it kinda kills him to be one of the "bad people" now. I am more like a "everyone makes mistakes" kinda person.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 4:54 PM, Monday, November 25th]

Funnily enough, I was always the ‘everyone makes mistakes’ person; he was the unforgiving one. I am still like that, but my definition of a mistake doesn’t extend to planning something secretively for weeks and then acting on those plans.

Panopticon: yes here too. Seeing others with the same situation makes me wonder if their moral rigidity was part of the problem. Or did the WS just believe it was impossible for them to do something wrong so they didn’t self-reflect?

"Rules for thee but not for me" ----or, entitlement.

Many WS cheat because they feel entitled to cheat.

Either they've convinced themselves that their horrible partner, or their imperfect present circumstances, or their "denied" sexuality, or their ______________ fill in the blank, are so awful and soooooo unjust.....by golly they're entitled to lie and betray to get whatever it is they want outside the relationship.

Or they're used to getting what they want, or have been taught they SHOULD get what they want. They're accustomed to navigating society as an entitled person via their gender, physical attractiveness, place in the power hierarchy, socio-economic status, religious dogma, FOO dynamics, race, etc. etc. So, belief in their self-entitlement simplifies breaking the monogamous compact.

Or they have a personality disorder :-).

Entitled folks get to play by a different set of rules than we the rank and file citizens do. Ironically, entitled individuals not only feel entitled to break the rules, they also feel entitled to ENFORCE the rules. 'Cause the rules should be followed (by everyone but them) otherwise how would society function to serve the entitled person's benefit? Hope this makes sense. So, it's not surprising some entitled cheaters get indignant when OTHER people cheat, or lie. And also not surprising they fail to recognize their own indignation as hypocrisy.

Does WS see the irony? Probably not while indignation is coming out of his mouth. Can he recognize the double standard when it's pointed out? IMO, that depends upon how ingrained the entitlement is ..... "His view is that he made a terrible error that he has learned from but isn’t in the same league…" statement is concerning. Sorry to say there's a whiff of entitlement there. Months of betrayal, planning, lying, cheating, gaslighting AND willingness to engage in sex trade is characterized as"an error". Therefore not as egregious as the rules the coworkers broke. THEY have to follow the rules - they especially shouldn't have lied to HIM. His lies to you........ not as big a deal.

Panopticon, It's okay for us BS to point out baffling WS behavior - it's part of the give and take REQUIRED to create a NEW equitable marriage. Their choices killed the old marriage, so all bets are off. One doesn't have to be "triggered" or "in a good place" to discuss WS behaviors - as we see them, when we see them. Especially the "rules for thee but not for me" stuff ---grrr hate that! Assuming there's privacy with no kids around. Waggling eyebrows may work to clue your H when he's paying lip service to a double standard. Certainly doesn't work for mine :-). If you have something to say, speak up. If he does recognize the irony of espousing a double standard about lying and cheating, that could be a good sign. If he doesn't get it, and gets indignant or equivocates when the irony is noted, that could tell you something about where that double standard is coming from. [[Hugs]]

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 4:03 AM, Sunday, December 1st]

Robert Burns said it best:

Oh, would some Power the gift give us
To see ourselves as others see us!
It would from many a blunder free us,

Excerpted from his poem about the dolled up high falutin’ lady in church who was also sporting a wee louse.

Take heart. It is all too human to minimize our own faults. He’s normal in that regard. But he really needs to get a little closer to self-actualization and accept that he was fully capable of being a louse, so he shouldn’t be throwing stones.

Between the compartmentalization and the cognitive dissonance that cheaters partake in, he probably doesn't. On a subconscious level, maybe he does. However, if someone doesn't point it out, he will put it in a drawer, close it, lock it, and hide the key.
The sheer amount of mental gymnastics and limbo dancing they do is truly amazing if you observe it clinically.
Do you discuss stuff like this with him? Some cheaters have the capacity to see the irony, but it's usually not immediately.

My husband was described as "The Saint" by his family when growing up. He always presented himself as the good guy, trustworthy, honest and abhorred people that would lie. So he lived in two worlds thanks to Compartmentalization.
He engaged with numerous women online and a few actual meetups. When dday occurred his pathetic imagery world exploded, burned and blew up. My safe world was a sham and I was in total
Shock. Who was this man? Just a sad inept low self esteem weak man.
I survived and became stronger while he had to face the ugly truth.

I was going through boxes in the garage and came upon 2 letters I had saved that my H had had the kids write after they had gotten caught in a lie. Full page single line "why I will never lie again". I showed them to him and he chuckled. Then I asked him if perhaps I should have him write one. He instantly understood and the shame in his expression was gratifying yet heartbreaking.

Over the years he often said "there's nothing worse than a liar and a thief". Well I'm here to tell you he was right. My response to the last time was he should know. Again the shame.

I am not a mean person, but sometimes I just have to call him out on his hypocrisy. It humbles him.

My WW, who had a secret 14 year relationship with her old college boyfriend where "nothing physical happened", got an email from one of our friends. She read it to me, "Casey (her granddaughter)is spending the weekend at our lake cabin with her boyfriend just to talk." WW snorts, "Yeah, like that could be true." I don’t know if she noticed the irony.

Hello, I hope your day is getting better and I hope you all have a happy thanksgiving. I can relate in a way. A few years ago, my partner R was telling me about his career military cousin and how he feels sorry for the guy because he is 57 and doesn't have any kids to show for his age. Um, I'm in my 50s too! I never got to experience kids or getting pregnant, in large part because I'd been waiting patiently for R to propose but he never has. R has no kids too. I remember relaying this to two different friends at the time and each advised me that maybe R did realize he wants a kid now but it's too late for him (he's 10 years older than me) or he might even end up trying to find someone younger eventually so to be careful.

I tended to point out the irony to fWH’s comments when appropriate in the past.
He was usually unaware of the links to his infidelity and its’ consequences. He would just blurt things out. Except watching shows on screen where there is infidelity involved. He is quite silent and fidgets uncomfortably.

Over time there is less of that self importance and judgement thrown around. Though when it comes out, my response is "well you should know shouldn’t you". It is my classic go to.

I think "throwing stones" is part of him. All too human I would add just like Notsogreatexpectations wrote.