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The other day BS and I were talking. He was saying how for him the cycle in our relationship has been I do something hurtful->he feels sorry for me->he tries to fix me. When he said this, I felt sad, hurt, and slightly vindicated. In the beginning of our relationship, "I often felt like, and told him, that his "love" for me wasn't really about me, but who he thought he could make me into. I felt like a project, like he didn't really love me or even like me. It's been a really painful wound. When I would bring it up I would be told, no that's not true. The energy that I got from him eventually shifted from, "I feel bad for you so I'll make you a project" to "I love you the way that you are and I want to love and support you in becoming the person you're meant to be" so I told myself that I was just devaluing the love that I was getting in the beginning. But the feeling kept coming back. I felt crazy because clearly this person doesn't love who I am now (which makes sense, I was awful) but they keep saying they do so is it me?

At the time, we were trying to focus on him in the conversation and I was trying to mostly listen, so I didn't bring up my thoughts and feelings at the time. I also didn't want to turn it into a "Gotcha!" thing. It's also like,it's still pretty soon after DDay. It's almost five months. It feels too soon to be criticizing BS's part in the relationship.

But it's bothering me and on my mind. He didn't acknowledge, "And when you tried to tell me this for years I didn't listen and gaslit you around it because I couldn't see it myself." I still don't think he really sees the impact this has had on me or our relationship. He's really focused on how it affected him.

I feel like I should bring this up. I feel like it's a pretty foundational cycle for us that we're still trapped in. I'm the incompetent one and he's the competent one so he has to handle everything and shut me out from being able to support him. In response to him saying that he doesn't bring his challenges to me, I sort of brought it up. I said, "I was your project, not your partner. And it makes sense that you wouldn't feel like I'm your equal. But i was kept and kept myself in a position where I'm incapable of anything and your the capable one so you have to figure it all out yourself and can't rely on me. I'm not saying it's your fault. It's not. You were trying to survive and respond to my abuse. I was trying to stay who I was and not grow, or trying to grow but not knowing how and not feeling capable. I knew the cycle was unhealthy and I didn't take steps to break it." I was told that it's proof that I'm unsafe to communicate with and an insane response. I thought what I was saying was adding on to what he was saying. Now I don't feel like I can actually bring it up because he'll take it that I'm blaming him for the relationship problems. But it's also a big deal to me that he wasn't really in love with me those years, when I called him out on that I was gaslit, and that now that he admits it it's really about how bad and hard that was for him (and it was) but without the acknowledgement of its impact on me or the relationship. If he brings up how it affected the relationship, it's about my role in hurting it. I'm really angry about this I'm realizing as I type this out. This is actually a huge deal to me.

How do I bring this up, especially since right now BS is mad at me and doesn't want me around or to talk to me and we're arguing (I don't want to argue but I feel like this isn't true and I don't know how to be honest and empathetic and supportive while also not just agreeing and taking their perspective if I don't agree), but I feel like to resolve some of the issues he brought up this has to be acknowledged? I don't want it to come off like I'm blaming him. He already feels when I bring this up like I'm saying I'm the good one and he's the bad one who hasn't let me be good. I also don't want him to feel like if he tells me things I'm going to bring it up later to use against him. But I also feel like it's really relevant to the topic we're discussing. How do I bring this up sensitively when things are already a little heated?

[This message edited by morted at 4:08 AM, Sunday, April 28th]

This is what I'm thinking so far:

"The other day, you were talking about our early relationship. You were saying that because of your trauma pattern, when I would act out, your response is to figure out why. This usually results in you feeling more sympathetic toward me and wanting to be with me to help me. If I misinterpreted you, please correct me. It's amazing that you have a big heart and can extend support to someone hurting you. I'm really grateful for the support that you've offered me, and the things you've taught me and shown me are making the work that I'm doing now possible. I appreciate that even now when we're not really in reconciliation you still want to help and support me. For you though I would like for this to be coming from a healthy place, one in which giving to me is fulfilling and not draining. If giving to me is hurting you, please do what you need to put yourself first. If I can do anything to help you with focusing on you, I will. I love you. I love seeing how you've been committing yourself to a healthy lifestyle and sticking with it. When I see you working out or doing something else, my heart swells and grows warm.

I also wanted to be honest with you about what came up for me when you brought up that pattern the other day. I felt sad, hurt, and a bit resentful because I often brought up then about how I felt like you saw me as something to work on and make better, not someone who you loved as they already were, and wanted to see at their best. The response I would get back is, "that's not true and how dare you question my love." I felt like I was crazy and just devaluing your love, especially because I did feel eventually that your love grew into something where you did love me as I was and just wanted to see me grow into my best self. It makes sense that that's not how you felt about me in the beginning. I treated you really poorly. I was not acting loving or lovable. And also, it hurt to feel like a project instead of a person. It hurt to be told that those feelings weren't valid. I didn't really know how much it hurt until you said it, and every time I write out how I feel about it and talking about it now, I'm realizing that it hurt deeper than I thought. It affected the way that I saw myself in the relationship. It felt like more evidence that my lack of self worth was valid. That's not to blame you. I had these issues before you and they're my responsibility to work on. I also see how I didn't bring this up to you in a constructive way. It was pretty much only during fights or to dismiss an issue that you brought up. I was scared to say it out loud and find out it was true. I didn't want to end our relationship or not be with you, but maybe if I had brought it up or gone our separate ways. I have mixed feelings about it too because if we had been looking at it honestly and healthy we probably would have broken up then and I never would have gotten to know you. Knowing you and getting that love and support from you is why I'm on my healing journey now, and I'm incredibly grateful for that. Also, thats selfish of me because this relationship hasn't been beneficial for you in any way.

You don't need to apologize or solve anything. You don't owe me anything. I also know we focus a lot on me so I don't want to take up more space. But also unspoken and denied resentments toward you on my part has contributed to our unhealthy dynamic. That was fueling the self centered and defensiveness in that fight we just had, especially that part where you pointed out I started making everything about me. It's also not living with integrity. I don't mean this as an attack and I hope that I expressed this as gently as possible. If you want to share what's coming up for you I'm here to listen. I understand if it feels like it's too soon to be discussing this. You're the one who was betrayed and you have ten years of things that have been bothering you that we also need to work through together. I'm not sure if bringing this up is the right thing or not to be honest, so if you don't feel like now's the right time I will respect that. Your healing is most important right now.

Taking it back to you, I noticed in that conversation, you started off saying that when you intend to have a conversation about yourself, you always end up focusing on me and we talk about that for a long time. I noticed when that was starting in this conversation. I wanted to point that out and help you refocus, but you also asked what I thought about what I had said, and I didn't want to deflect and ignore what you said. Do you think that was the right decision? Would you prefer if I gently pointed it out next time instead?"

I was debating over if I should just take the middle two paragraphs out. Is it too soon after DDay for me to bring up my resentments?

Look. I’m a WW myself. And I can truly understand the location that "feeling like a project" can arise from, that deep place inside where you feel like your needs are being devalued.

But… it’s only been 5 months for you guys. Both of you are still so raw and hurt, especially your BS. For him to hear that he’s been nothing but detrimental to your development as a partner and if he actually didn’t "mold you into his ideal person", you two wouldn’t be together, that would just cause hurt feelings.

But in principle, I understand the idea behind this resentment. When we’re not healthy, all human beings have a failsafe mechanism mentally and emotionally that is calling out to get healthy. And that mechanism is basically the resulting symptoms of unhealthiness. They let us know that we need healing. Where someone struggles with addiction, they may have symptoms of withdrawal or breaking skin. Where someone struggles with eating disorders, massive weight loss/gain. And the same is true for your own struggles with your personality Morted.

For so long you’ve been in an unhealthy state of lack of control of your own personality and ideas about yourself that you developed an idea that you could treat yourself terribly, that you could let others be abusive to you. You didn’t ever deserve that and in time, I think that’s a topic your BS would be very interested in hearing. If you would bring it up to him now, in 5 months though, it would just invoke arguments and anger. Because as I’ve said, your BS has a sickness - betrayal trauma and he’s still expressing symptoms of them. Let him heal up first and then try to bring up deeper resentments like this to him.

Thank you for your response. It makes sense that now is too soon to bring it up.

I also wanted to clarify, I don't think that he has been nothing but detrimental. He's been overall a positive influence in my life. He has always encouraged and supported me in being my best self. Which I guess is the other side of the project thing. Maybe I should lean more into the ways that I'm grateful he wanted to help me get into a better place.

I think you are looking at your husbands actions in a harsh manner and motivation. My daughter was like him as well. She never looked down on any of her boyfriends. I told her that her picker was broken. She was simply helping, but not helping. She was enabling. She never felt superior. Even as one in particular, constantly struggled. He was never happy with his work and constantly changing. Her income as stable as she always did what she needed to do. She felt she could help him and eventually he would stabilize. Eventually, his unhappiness turned toward the relationship and she was dumped. She went through severe, suicidal depression and eventually learned to seek a healthy relationship. This was not an act of superiority on her part, but inferiority. She spent her energy trying to help someone who was a sinkhole for emotions. While this isn't exactly what you and your husband are going through, I see many parallels. To me, he looks like someone who feels he can help and is likely trying to do right by you.
You may view you have a cancer in your relationship that may kill it in time. Well, even if that is true, you took your marriage and ran it into a wall at high speed. It's on life support and has a decent chance of dying. Yet, you want to focus on cancer treatments? This isn't about you any longer. You threw that away when you chose to have an affair instead of working on your marriage. Now is simply not the time.

Thank you for your honest response. I'm taking this to heart.

Keep working on you. I think you really are trying and seeking help, good. Keep it up, you'll get there.

I think this is likely YOUR issue. Until that can be proven otherwise I would not bother him with it. It puts him in a position to defend his love at a time where he shouldn’t have those responsibilities.

The issue is you don’t love yourself, believe you are lovable or good enough and you are projecting those feelings of inadequacies on him.

I too thought my husband didn’t love me. I learned that I hadn’t created an environment in which I could receive love.

I feel strongly that his comments about having to fix you is just saying the actual pattern of your relationship. I think he would not have done that if he didn’t earnestly believe he loved you and wanted the best for you.

Do not put him in a position to defend himself or use this as a thing to point at as to why you cheated. (Not that you have, it’s just a tendency people with problems like us tend to have)

As for him being the competent one versus you not, it will take showing your reliability and consistency for a long period of time. You can’t ask him to trust you with those things right now.
The very best that you might do is say “I know you haven’t been able to rely on me, I am going to work to change that. I can see I need to do that for me as much as for you and our child”

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:29 PM, Monday, April 29th]

1) I think you need to figure out what the source of your issue is. Are you projecting onto your H your own belief that you're nothing more than a project, or does he really treat you like a project that he can fix?

2) If he treats you like a project that he can fix, he's got a him problem, and you both have a relationship problem.

3) If your H treats you as a project, my reco is to figure out the changes in behavior you want and ask for them.

*****

From what you've said about yourself, my guess is the problem probably is that you see yourself as helpless and incompetent, that there's no solution anyway, and that you reject all evidence to the contrary.

Another guess is that you are not seeing your H as he really is.

In fact, you're strong, competent, traumatized, and you most definitely can heal a lot. Another reco: give up trying to control the outcome - go for healing. Healing is the best way to retrieve yourself and keep your M. Those are frim beliefs I hold, not guesses.

In fact, you're strong, competent, traumatized, and you most definitely can heal a lot. Another reco: give up trying to control the outcome - go for healing. Healing is the best way to retrieve yourself and keep your M. Those are frim beliefs I hold, not guesses.

Yes, exactly this.

After you have had time to heal, you will be surprised how many of these issues disappear. Everything is perception, the healthier you get the more your perceptions will match. Once you have done that, then worry about if there is more to address.

This is the only fixing you need to do for now. Focus on becoming the highest version of yourself. So much will fall into place and it will be the most worthwhile work of your lifetime!!!

Also keep in mind the only thing we can control truly is ourselves. I see you working on that, and that’s the best thing to do.

Sorry for the additional post but I thought of an illustration that might help you.

Your husband is saying "we have a pattern where I feel badly for you and then I try and fix it for you"

The response should not be "you have only wanted me around as a project. There is no other explanation for it. I want you to be with me because you love me"

The response should be, "I can see how my behaviors have largely created that dynamic."

Take accountability for why he feels that way, don’t look at it as he is only with me because he is obligated. It doesn’t honor either of you to think in those terms.

The fact he has stayed so far is a gift. Accept it, honor it, be grateful for it. Become a woman who can’t help but see what you bring to the table, he will see it too. And you won’t keep looking for him to prove your worth to you.

If that sounds harsh I do not mean it to be. Remember, I had to learn exactly the same thing, except O didn’t until I was in my forties! You have time and space to do this!!!!

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:29 PM, Monday, April 29th]

Thank you sissoon and hikingout for the honest opinions and encouragement. I don't mind the multiple relies, hiking out. The illustration was helpful.

I see how this is probably a me problem. I think it's likely me projecting my own insecurities onto him. My vision of reality has become a bit more clearer this weekend, so who knows how I'll feel about this later on.

I feel a bit guilty for bringing all this up about him as if he was the problem, but at the same time I posted it here because I knew that I would get the advice that I needed. It felt like the right place to go for guidance. Just so y'all know, he's a wonderful man. He's an amazing father, provider, and husband. He is super intelligent and the best cook in the world but he's so humble about both. He's reliable, honest, caring, silly, thoughtful, interesting, smoking hot *sigh* I could go on. He does earnestly love me, even now when he doesn't really like me that much. He's still sending me videos that he thinks could help me and talking with me about these issues. I think yesterday and this morning we were even coming a little bit closer. There's been more distance lately.

I won't bring it up to BS, at least not for a long time. I was getting on his paper with that, when my paper still has a lot of work to do. Ok, that metaphor doesn't work that well.

Not trying to control the outcome has been more difficult lately. I miss him. I miss being his. I miss being close and touching him so much. I miss hanging out and having fun together. I miss his arms. I miss him being happy to see me. I miss being in love with each other. I want to go to sleep tonight and wake up next to him. He's been working out, quit smoking, establishing a healthier lifestyle and it's so. damn. attractive. Gods, having an affair was so stupid and so so so so so not worth it. I know I need to focus on my own healing, not on saving the marriage or winning him back, but ugh my heart!

I still don't think he really sees the impact this has had on me or our relationship. He's really focused on how it affected him.

I was told that it's proof that I'm unsafe to communicate with and an insane response.

BS here. Gently, you may not have said "Gotcha" in the moment but you immediately jumped to "YES, see that proves me right and here’s why…." and then you bid your time until you felt like it was okay to bring it up. He came to you with what his feelings new revelations about your relationship patterns and your brain immediately jumped to focus on how those feelings affected you and validated things you’d previously said. Lost was the conversati Its no wonder he doesn’t feel safe communicating with you on this. You’re accusing him of focusing only on how things impact him, but you’re kind of doing the same thing.

Is it too soon after DDay for me to bring up my resentments?

I think it is. I’m not saying your feelings aren’t valid or real. It definitely sounds like its an issue for you, but I agree with those that it seems like a bit of a "you" issue right now. He probably needs to recognize that it’s not healthy for him to feel like he needs to try to fix all your problems, and you probably need to recognize that you need to stop expecting others to fix your problems, and take ownership of your own feelings (instead of externalizing them on others).

Pre-Dday I had heard this saying about how in every relationship there is a flower and a gardener – someone who is selfless and supportive and expends energy on the other partner, and someone who is maybe more temperamental and requires more attention, who soaks up the energy and efforts of the other partner in order to bloom. For the record, in a lot of ways I identified as the gardener in my relationship and it sounds like your husband probably does too (I think this is common in the BS/WS dynamic). I didn’t mind that too much pre-D-day as ‘gardening’ came kind of natural to me, and I didn’t feel resentment surrounding it, but that kind of changed when D-day rolled around. I kind of felt like I deserved a chance at being the hot house flower that needed tending to for a while – and to be honest, that was probably a good reset for our relationship dynamic. The last thing I wanted to hear was "here is the way all your gardening made me feel….." because I had spent so much time tending to him and it didn’t get me all that much. If anything, the more I read post-Dday the more I realized I was probably contributing to some of his issues (it sounds like maybe your husband has started to recognize this pattern in your relationship). In many ways (like many waywards) my H had justified his A to himself by externalizing the negative emotions he had been experiencing (if I’m feeling bad, it must be because she is not doing X, Y or X). He had spent entirely too much time feeling like a victim of his own feelings over the years, and what I wanted/needed to hear was my husband taking ownership for his own emotions and actions. Part of R was me needing to see him become his own gardener instead of waiting for me (or his boss, or the OW, etc etc) to water/fertilize him. I think this is probably something you would benefit from too. It sounds like you agree that this gardener/flower dynamic isn’t totally productive. What are the ways in which you have contributed to it? What are the things you can do differently moving forward? See if you can focus on that.

A few tips on how to share difficult topics:

1) Up front, say you want to share your thinking or concern about the topic and then you really want to hear their perspective too. This helps reduce defensiveness a bit by letting them know you want a two way dialogue and what they think matters

2) Up front, try to connect the topic to a shared goal all parties are committed to.

3) try to share the heart of your message succintly. Like in just a sentence or two. This can take a lot of work to make it this succint but it if you can do that it bodes well that the other party will understand the message more clearly. Write it out and see if it describes what you actually want to say. After that summary, you can share more detail, thinking, rationale etc to support it as needed.

4) Show sincere curiosity into what they think you may be missing in your perspective as well as what they believe about the topic. Parwphrase what you hewr so they know you are listening

5) when appropriate, summarize what you said and what they said and see how close you are, what next steps might be.

Is that helpful?

Thank you everyone. I've had a bit of a breakthrough about this. Before I thought it might have been my insecurities and entitlement, then after reading your post I got it intellectually, but after sitting and reflect, I really see and get it. My BS is a wonderful human being, husband, and father. He loves me a lot. He's always been supportive and has just wanted me to be at my best. The feeling like a project comes from my own insecurity that I'm not good enough for him and also from the small, survival part of me that is terrified to change and grow. That part of me doesn't want to give up the trauma patterns that she thinks have helped her survive and avoid pain.

Also, I have been really entitled toward his love and attention. Looking at everything I've done to him, even before the affair, he doesn't have to be here AT ALL. He has every right to walk out and leave. He can say he did his part to try to fix things. Him talking to me about this, him sharing what he wants from me for us to have a future together, that IS him loving me.And those aren't small things either. I've been entitled to discredit that love and mope because it's not the love that I want. But I don't deserve that closeness between us. I destroyed it.

Great reflection.

Becoming self aware is a painful process, with many regrets. But as you put into practice what you are learning, that heaviness slowly evaporates. Living our values and bing in that alignment will feel so much better to you.

Ugh I fucked up big time again. We were talking about sex and BS mentioned that AP never had to deal with my triggers. I said , "Why do you think that he didn't?" I thought it might be weirdly comforting to know that he did. But for BS it was understandably not something that felt good to hear. I seriously hurt him and if we were starting to get back on a better foot I just blew all of that up. I'm so angry at myself. I feel so bad for my BS. I wish they made a salve you could rub on these wounds to make it better. I did the wrong thing. He doesn't deserve to be punished for it.

Your BS is hurting and triggered. It's not necessarily because you said the wrong thing or "fucked up", it's because talking about your affair and especially your sexual relationship with the AP is going to be so full of triggers and there is no "right way" to talk about so that it hurts less. The fuck up happened when you cheated, not when you told him about it. I mean, there are certainly insensitive/inflammatory ways to say things, but I promise you that even if you worded it PERFECTLY, he'd find reasons to spiral because his brain/body/heart is on an emotional rollarcoaster right now. The best you can do is be calm, comforting, apologetic, and honest while he spirals. Don't' let his reactions change your behaviour or your answers. Don't try to only provide him with information you think he wants to hear. PLEASE! That might make the short term more palatable (for you) but it's not going to help him build trust or get past it in the long-term. Let him know that you'll be there for him regardless because you are the one he wants - no matter what. Be honest, don't minimize or defend. Tell him you know it's terrible and that you're sorry. Let him spiral - that is a natural response to imagining your spouse's intimate relationship with another person. Consistency, honesty, and remorse is what he needs from you while he does.

I'm going to be as remorseful as I can. I'm not handling it well as I'm spiraling on my own with said triggers. Not that that's an excuse. We shouldn't have to be dealing with this at all and it's my fault we are. I had the affair.

I don't think he wants me anymore. I think I'm losing him. I know it's my fault - I left first. I need to stay as calm as I can right now, not slide into self pity or trying to convince him to stay in my life and keep the focus on him.

I don't think he wants me anymore.

You are catastrophizing. This is the same issue from the other day. You just finished telling us how he earnestly loves you.

Emergent is right. There is going to be a lot of this falling apart, spiraling. It’s normal. He has been traumatized. You have to find a way to it for the knee jerk reaction to be he doesn’t love you, doesn’t love you.

The reaction should be you love him. You are going to be his rock. You are going to learn how to comfort his triggers. Grief and healing are not linear, it’s going to be all over the place all the time, for a long time.