SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hello,

I have reading some affair stuff online and came across marriage builders by dr Harley. He says some stuff that got me thinking about my WS. Like he says that men can love two women (which I think is probably an accurate reflection). That sometimes a WS will keep an affair going on for two years even after found out but still wantto make a go of the marriage and it will eventually end around the two year mark once him and his ap realise there is no future. I felt there was a lot of excusing of the WS. Have other people read any of his stuff?

Oh my gosh, I was on that forum from almost D-Day 1 in late 2002 until I found this wonderful site, over 15 years! And all that time, I felt like an oddball unicorn amongst their herd of "marriage builders" who seemed to mostly to be in R. I noticed there were some frequent "guide" posters who would hand out strict formulas for success to everybody. It became predictable.

I was never helped there like I have been here, but if my situation had been different than emotionless infidelity, I guess it may have been reasonable advice.

I bought and read every book Dr. Harley had at the time. The best relationship book for me was "Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders" which dealt with differences in relationship commitment levels.

His approach was straight behavioral-based and so far as it goes, it made sense. Just got less and less from the site...and then found SI!

My take is his "Plan A" is telling the BS to do the Pick Me Dance. I find it disgusting that he tells BH’s to keep it up for an ungodly amount of time but excuses the BW’s, saying their gentle countenance can only take it for a few weeks.

Unless I’m remembering incorrectly, Harley is a huge proponent of Unmet Needs, he may have even been the one who coined the term.

I checked out that site shortly after my D-day. It felt wrong and inauthentic to me, where SI felt human and wise.

Ink I believe you are right, Unmet Needs was one of Harley's behavioral-based terms he coined. I guess he studied under some kind of anthropological evolutionist because if all we are is an animal, then our behavior can be seen as responding to environmental stimuli. Pretty sad, really.

I am unfamiliar with that program. In terms of this:

Unmet Needs was one of Harley's behavioral-based terms he coined. I guess he studied under some kind of anthropological evolutionist because if all we are is an animal, then our behavior can be seen as responding to environmental stimuli.

I have thought a lot about unmet needs. It’s interesting to me that as someone who has not had formal education on such topics that it doesn’t seem to occur to these scientists that it depends on what kind of animal you are as to how you respond to your environment.

Anyone married has unmet needs at least on an intermittent basis. Probably most of us experience it as a constant. The focus should be on how does one respond to that? I can say I cheated due to unmet needs, that is true. But it doesn’t tell the story of whether those unmet needs were realistic, healthy, whether I tried to address them, and how an affair is not an appropriate response to that.

I wish there were a program that says "hey if you don’t want to divorce this first year, here is how to navigate it" and provide insight on detachment, focusing on self, protecting yourself, etc. I think marital issues do eventually need addressed but way, way, later. I also think that often if both people focus on working on themselves for a period of time, the relationship doesn’t go back together in the same way. It’s almost as if two smarter people are at the wheel can steer better.

No matter how much you work in a relationship no one person can meet all your needs, so unless you fix how someone reacts to that, I am not sure a marriage can ever continue.

I know those who posted responses know that, I am just expanding the conversation for the observers. People need to know why this is the wrong way to go. If your spouse cheated on you, twisting yourself into a pretzel to meet their needs and nice them back will never work because you are still married to the same animal who copes how they cope.

Yes, I found it after my first dday and blamed myself then I stopped. I was looking at it again recently. My husband is still involved with his ap two years on and according to dr Harley, this is normal for some men and once the man accepts there is no future it will just end. As far as I can see he doesn’t seem to except that he has to do any work on himself And all should be ok once needs have been met

Lemonpie,

I don't think any relationship has a shelflife other than how long each party is willing to endure it.

I wouldn't count on a magic clock to end your WH's relationship with his AP. Your WH will have two relationships as long as he has two partners who are willing to accept that situation. I've read here and other sites of affairs that have fizzled out after a few weeks or have continued for decades.

My husband is still involved with his ap two years on and according to dr Harley, this is normal for some men and once the man accepts there is no future it will just end.

First off, I’m so sorry that your husband is continuing to betray you.

The back half of this statement is SO BIZARRE to me. How can anyone who has ever been in the presence of someone who has experienced betrayal trauma make such an idiotic statement? Because even if it’s true (which it often isn’t), it completely misses the damn point. It seems to come from a starting premise that the marriage should be saved at all costs. I have friends that went to church with Dr Harley, and from that cultural perspective that premise doesn’t surprise me. But I now believe it is utterly flawed (see my signature for my response to that).

And I fully agree with you, hikingout. If I had a dime for every time I’ve read a BS write "well I had unmet needs too!" It’s no excuse for betrayal.

Probably a whole different thread topic, but even the use of the word "needs" in terms of relationships is really interesting. How much entitlement is born just from the usage of that word?

Probably a whole different thread topic, but even the use of the word "needs" in terms of relationships is really interesting. How much entitlement is born just from the usage of that word?

I feel mixed on that.

For example, It’s a valid need to have emotional safety. My husband and I just had a disagreement on that Friday. If I can’t be safe in telling him my fears or anxieties, then I am likely to be more shut down with him.

It doesn’t give me a right to cheat that is when entitlement is unhealthy.

But I do feel that we are all worthy of having our needs met. But our needs are our responsibility. In the case of the argument on Friday, it was something that maybe I could discuss with another family member or friend. Except it was about one of our kids so I would like to be able to state my concern to him as he is more familiar with dynamics and preferences of our children.

However, for him it’s that I spent years ruminating and emotionally disappearing as a result when I feel I have hurt someone (usually unintentionally) so for him hearing a familiar tone to something like that is triggering. He is worthy of also feeling emotional safety and my overthinking tendencies (though much improved) is sometimes a threat to that.

All this to say marriage is more about balancing needs than holding each other completely accountable to meet all of them. But I do think we are entitled to have needs in marriage, but we are required to know what they are and have an ability to manage them.

Even sex- sex is a need for many people. You are not wrong to have that as a need. It’s one that can only be met in marriage. But you have to come to a balance both people can live and be safe in.

And to turn this back to lemon pie-

There is no emotional safety in being in a relationship with a man you have to share, and just hoping he is going to come to his senses. Reality is if he doesn’t see the problem, doesn’t work on it, if it does fizzle out with her then he will just find another AP.

I do think certain things in marriage entitles you to certain expectations and this is the clearest one of all. Your best move is to tell him she can have him and file. It may bring him back but even if it doesn’t you have to look out for your own needs and sanity because you are worthy of peace. You have been given some very bad advice.

There are various sites dedicated to helping people deal with infidelity, with the one mentioned in this thread being one of them.
These sites might have different approaches, emphasis and tactics but each is IMHO based on honest and true belief by their founders and moderators that they are doing good rather than harm. It then becomes an issue about the contributions from other posters, and the moderation of the sites if they can reach that intended goal.

If you have questions on the methodology other sites condone or suggest, the best place to get an better understanding is probably that site, rather than ask about it on another site. You don’t have to search long on other sites to find negative comments about other sites – like this site we are on right now.

I hope we here on SI have the good taste and decency to NOT talk disparagingly about other sites but rather focus on what we can do here. If we don’t condone or support the approach others might take, then don’t participate there.

Cheaters pick both as long as both is an option. It's selfish hedonistic gratification. If it ends with AP because "there is no future", it's because the AP dumped them, not because the WS stopped enjoying the extra attention.

I do think some people can love more than one person. They might be in to ethical non-monogamy, or other such options. Cheating is not showing love and respect to your spouse. So even if WS is in love (lurve, limerence) with AP, they aren't being a loving partner to BS.

Bigger- I can understand what you are saying, but I think lemon was looking for alternative ways of looking at philosophy that she has consumed to feel what resonates for her. And personally, and with great respect to you , if anyone is being told to just wait out an active affair (which in my mind is condoning) I hope they do come to our site for an alternate opinion. If that advice was not their programs intention maybe it will help them to improve communications.

A couple of years ago another popular infidelity site had a multi-page thread about the horrors of SI.
I found that conversation to be totally in bad taste, and as part of the moderation staff on this site I hope to avoid the same stain placed on this site.
That is why I – acting as a member of the moderation staff of Surviving Infidelity – suggest we do not talk disparagingly of what others are doing or suggesting. If the OP has questions about MB principles the correct forum would probably be the MB forum.
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What I will say about the issues mentioned in the OP post is that what is shared is an extreme simplification of the MB principles as I recall having read them. There was a Plan A, and that included actions to make the betrayed spouse an attractive option that could be seen as a "pick-me- dance", but there was also a Plan B and that was a very definite strategy to get out of infidelity with or without the betrayed spouse.
But then – at the time I didn’t think the strategy offered there was to my liking, so I haven’t been on that site except for an occasional short visit for some years

Go take a peek at the long-term affairs thread in the I Can Relate forum. The thread has had to be restarted THIRTY NINE TIMES over the years because there's that much engagement.

You will likely continue to be a victim of infidelity as long as you tolerate it. Your H has no incentive to stop.

No intent to be in bad taste, but I can see where you are coming from, Bigger. I can assume good intent there even if I strongly disagree with them. I’ll look to refrain from commenting directly like that in the future.

Bigger- In fairness I thought I was talking to you as a fellow poster as typically moderator stuff comes in a different, more obvious form (usually reminders or warnings in bold) and most guides and moderators also post personally too . (Still not trying to argue, just explaining myself)

I do not have anything bad to say about a program that I know nothing about. But whether it’s an oversimplification, this was lemon pie’s understanding of the material and it pains me if it’s keeping her from getting out of infidelity.

I have read some of the other things written about our site, including stuff about myself, and I would not want to belong to a site like that either.

I will throw out one last thought for future considerations - It’s common place here to give reviews on books and other programs - Esther Pearl comes to mind that many here are not fond of her philosophy because they see her as a ws apologizer. People have attended Gottman workshops and felt they didn’t like the philosophy. Some people do not like the books we typically recommend like not just friends and how to help your spouse heal. So it’s a bit of a grey area to me. That’s all I will say on the topic, I leave it to the wonderful moderators of this site to keep it all moving and As I said I have nothing but respect for you both as a poster and a moderator.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:33 PM, Wednesday, October 30th]

Oh I am sorry, didn’t mean to cause offence. I think I am just all over the place. When I am home I want to leave and then when I came back from visiting my family my husband has declared, he has told this person never to contact him and and has asked her to close all joint cases. I believed him and thought that was good but then I thought to myself why didn’t he do this when he first moved office locations nearly 9 months ago. When I raised this ‘I am being mean’ and I am over exaggerating. He never apologises for this recent conversation that I caught him on. He is still willing to move country but has given me a long list as to why it will be bad for him. I get it, it will be hard for all of us. So that is when I started reading up on things and I genuinely think my husband hasn’t been happy. I have been cold, I think he probably loves both of us but wants the marriage more. When I read the article by dr Harley, it seemed different to the advice I commonly see on here and so was wondering if people had any success with it and should I just wait it out or maybe he is getting some needs met as I get a lot of needs met through my family and friends, he seems to struggle with this so much more than I do. Sorry for rambling on