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For me, I can feel compassion and empathy and still hold boundaries. I can hold my boundaries without calling someone an asshole. It’s just my boundary. I don’t think anyone is “just” anything and if someone is treating others like that, it means they need help and rehabilitation if possible. Wounded kids of wounded kids of wounded kids...

I’m saying the former as a part of my own personal experience. Me saying my rapist was a hurt person doesn’t take away that his actions hurt me. My empathy for him doesn’t make me vulnerable to his destruction. Explaining is not excusing and understanding is not condoning, IMO.

Additionally, perhaps more on topic, I totally get what you’re talking about, Mrs Panda! I was Ms Independent. Little Miss Type A. Vulnerability was the enemy. I still struggle with this and catch myself “shoulding” on myself, although I’m more aware of it now. I’m catching it!

Me saying my rapist was a hurt person doesn’t take away that his actions hurt me. My empathy for him doesn’t make me vulnerable to his destruction.

You may be more evolved than I am or just a kinder person. I have no empathy for the man who raped me. My empathy is shut off at that level of harm. I don't care what happened to him, happens to him our could happen to him. He is a non-person to me. He can find others to give him empathy, but it will not come from this direction.

I understand therapy, but I also understand that abusers thrive on pity and empathy and kindness from others. They are not defeated by those things.

No. Of course not. But we become them when we actively ignore those parts of our humanity.

I don't think it's fair or kind to ask you to find empathy towards your rapist. In fact I think rape should be punishable by death. I think human life has very little value in and of itself.

As far as PTSD goes. I have seen more than one person in my battalion suffer greatly from it. Many of them put the rifle to their head and pulled the trigger. I wouldn't have been surprised if any of them had gone out to do a mass shooting. Calling them assholes is reductive to the extreme. Much like calling a rapist an "asshole". But I think this discussion, if it needs to continue, should warrant its own thread..

As far as PTSD goes. I have seen more than one person in my battalion suffer greatly from it. Calling them assholes is reductive to the extreme.

PTSD, rape; we're talking about the types of things really do, IMHO, "break" people. Things that many people simply cannot recover from, and who never again lead a normal/full life after experiencing.

Those are examples, in my mind, of where "broken" has some applicability. Some awful event that changes the course of another person's life and is with them forever.

However, that said, let's set those types of things aside for a moment; yes, I'm sure that some people do have an A because of PTSD trauma and/or rape trauma; but that's not the "common" situation. My wife's "broken" for example, was really "You don't provide enough/good enough kibbles and I feel unloved". Most of the guys I know, their "broken" is "I can't get laid enough at home and/or I'm just bored and want some new sex". Comparing either of those reasons to PTSD or rape, or saying that my wife was "broken" by my crappy kibbles similar to the trauma of a rape victim is.. Well, a stretch.

This is part of my fundamental disagreement with this term being thrown around, it dilutes the meaning to basically apply to all of us. Could I point at something to "broke" me. Sure, every BS on here could, an affair is pretty darn traumatic and yet most of us don't go and have an affair of our own to deal with the "breakage". Would her A be the reason for my A? Well, I might advance that angle in trying to save my marriage, but, sitting here, I can tell you that would be all on me. She didn't break anything except her word and the trust that she had, if I turn around and have an A, I should be looking in the mirror, not looking around to try to figure out what "broke me".

This is part of my fundamental disagreement with this term being thrown around, it dilutes the meaning to basically apply to all of us. Could I point at something to "broke" me. Sure, every BS on here could, an affair is pretty darn traumatic and yet most of us don't go and have an affair of our own to deal with the "breakage". Would her A be the reason for my A? Well, I might advance that angle in trying to save my marriage, but, sitting here, I can tell you that would be all on me. She didn't break anything except her word and the trust that she had, if I turn around and have an A, I should be looking in the mirror, not looking around to try to figure out what "broke me".

I think you have a very narrow view on what the words means and you're applying it in a way that specifically backs your point. Aren't you open to other ways that term can be used?

Using your example, being a BS is an event that "broke" you. And you're 100% right that most BS's don't go have an affair as a result. And that's because they have good internal coping mechanisms, a strong sense of integrity and morality. Add whatever you wish that fits your personal situation. But if a BS did have an affair as a result, what would that tell you? I could point to the original A as an event, but that's not how I think of "broken." It's not only an external force. It can be internal as well. What is going on inside the BS as a result of that original A?

A WS discussing brokenness is not necessarily about advancing an angle to get away with something. If a WS is doing that then it's disingenuous. You seem to revert back to a specific story where brokenness is used by a WS only to play the victim card and absolve the WS of all responsibility. Why? Why can't the WS look in the mirror, accept responsibility and own what she or he did, be 100% at fault, yet also try to figure out what is going on inside them to fix that part of themselves? Why didn't they have good coping skills to deal with whatever issue they had? Why didn't they discuss it? Why wasn't there personal integrity or loyalty or a moral compass? How were they able to hurt other people like this? The fact that a WS had an A to begin with means there was some kind of brokenness inside. Why wouldn't we want a WS to understand that and work on it so they can become healthier, safer, better people and partners, whether it's with their BS or someone else?

Basically, why do you feel that ownership of the A and being broken are mutually exclusive?

No. Of course not. But we become them when we actively ignore those parts of our humanity.

This hit me because I did have to do that to save myself. We can add that experience to my brokenness because being put in that position is traumatic. After I left my XWH, he threatened suicide and attempted at least once. He had fallen heavily into drug addiction and was not remotely in his right mind. I rushed over there the first night and interrupted what I think was a genuine attempt. The second time I called the police to go do a wellness check. Third time was an overdose that he came out of that might have been an attempt if I believe what he said. By I think the fifth time, I told him calmly that this was his choice and I could not make it for him and I was blocking his number. I had come to a place of acceptance that I couldn't know for sure whether this was genuine or manipulation, but I had to accept that his death was likely and go no contact with him because I needed to be able to live and be a sane person. I went from loving a man with all of my heart to being pretty much at peace about his inevitable death. I don't believe that makes me as bad as he was, but you may disagree. Shortly after, he went to rehab for the second time. I think it was 70% manipulation and the only thing that stopped it was removing myself as an empathetic audience. Was he in incredible psychic pain? Yeah, I'm pretty positive that he was. He probably still is. The only thing trying to help him with that pain would do is destroy me. Maybe I've been in enough addict games and that is not a road you can walk without the ability to let go of a person.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 9:09 AM, December 11th (Friday)]

However, that said, let's set those types of things aside for a moment; yes, I'm sure that some people do have an A because of PTSD trauma and/or rape trauma; but that's not the "common" situation. My wife's "broken" for example, was really "You don't provide enough/good enough kibbles and I feel unloved". Most of the guys I know, their "broken" is "I can't get laid enough at home and/or I'm just bored and want some new sex". Comparing either of those reasons to PTSD or rape, or saying that my wife was "broken" by my crappy kibbles similar to the trauma of a rape victim is.. Well, a stretch

.

RIO - I also think that's a narrow view. And, I will keep the details to myself but the issues your wife had prior to her affair could really be considered devastasting and often brings a sense of existential crisis. To throw back she just lacked kibbles seems to ignore an issue that maybe you didn't feel as deeply as she did? Not sure, but that's all I will say on that matter.

As far as trauma - do you realize the majority of WS women here have been sexually assaulted/abused? Often in our youth with no recognition of trauma or help in the matter. I told my school counselor and she - and I shit you not - seemed to indicate that she thought I liked the attention and that I was complicit. I look back and realize how I bought into this because she was an adult who seemingly had authority on the matter. Mind you this was after I had told my mom who did nothing about it because she didn't want to cause a family rift.

Did that cause me to cheat? No, I own that as a decision I made. But, did it cause me to have very fucked up thinking when it came to attention and sex? Did it shape how I cope with things by burying them? Yes, it absolutely did. Did it cause some of my boundary issues? Absolutely.

I can't fix the decision I made to cheat. In the aftermath all I can do is change the conditions internally that allowed it. I can tell you I was a complete asshole (and really worse if you want my opinion) in having an affair and even in some of the aftermath. And, I think that acknowledgment does have to occur. I think someone has to almost feel rock bottom sometimes before they will take on an examination of themselves. They have to be sick of their own way of being. But, to move forward and be the person I need to be it has to absolutely move beyong that. And, when you go through that process earnestly, you do come out the other side seeing that you were always trying to solve the problem with broken thinking. Fix the broken thinking and you will learn to solve problems in a much more mature and responsible way.

I am not telling you this necessarily for you to have empathy for WS or to defend anyone. I am telling you this because you choose to stay married to a woman that I do believe you love. And, in order for you to make peace with that, getting more depth around the subject may help you to ascertain has she done what she really needs to do moving forward? Has she fixed her broken thinking? I think as a BS we always need the acknowledgment of how wrong the WS was, how they can see their behavior bluntly. (Thus asshole to me is one of the words that fits). But, that stage should have already happened for you guys, what has happened that went beyond that? It makes me question if there was any deep analysis that brought any understanding if you still, 4 years or so later still think that the problem is that she didn't get enough ego kibbles. And, even if that WAS the problem, there should be a deep understanding of where that came from and how she has mitigated that thought pattern and reframed that need. Maybe not *your* deep understanding but at least seemingly hers?

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:07 AM, December 11th (Friday)]

Those are examples, in my mind, of where "broken" has some applicability. Some awful event that changes the course of another person's life and is with them forever.

Forever is an interesting choice. Would you say a traumatic event that "broke" someone could manifest years later in choices that would affect their life negatively (drinking, drugs, etc)? What is a traumatic event to a child - abandonment, sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse?

Sure, every BS on here could, an affair is pretty darn traumatic and yet most of us don't go and have an affair of our own to deal with the "breakage".

There are worse ways to deal with affair trauma than having an affair yourself.

Comparing either of those reasons to PTSD or rape, or saying that my wife was "broken" by my crappy kibbles similar to the trauma of a rape victim is.. Well, a stretch.

I didn't say your wife was broken by your crappy kibbles. I've no idea what you did or didn't do to be honest. I don't know what happened to your wife in her past or between the two of you in your relationship. But if I would hazard a suggestion - and I usually don't - this statement sounds like deflection and minimizing (I say sounds like, again, I don't know you and this is an anonymous internet forum); I do hope you've gone deeper than that into your situation.

@dee

I had to do that with my parents. It took me time in therapy to understand that my father isn't an asshole. A liar, a cheat, abuser and a thief. But also a soldier, a friend, a brother and a son. He's a flawed person. A broken person in many ways. I had to put distance between me and them for my own safety and my children's. I can't fix his broken parts; he has to do it himself (unfortunately in my case the ending isn't a happy one).

Acknowledging the complexity of the human experience, acknowledging that a person is broken in places; that's not absolving them of responsibility. It puts the idea that they can be fixed. And in a way that simply dismissing someone as an asshole will never be able to. In my opinion.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 7:06 PM, December 11th (Friday)]

It may be completely inappropriate,

inadequate,

misplaced,

to dismiss another person as an 'asshole.'

But it may be the best option that one has...

... and move on.

... or not, and figure out a way to live with it.

... or, not.

Would you say a traumatic event that "broke" someone could manifest years later in choices that would affect their life negatively (drinking, drugs, etc)? What is a traumatic event to a child - abandonment, sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse?

Yes, I would agree with that.

There are worse ways to deal with affair trauma than having an affair yourself.

There are much better ways too. Yes, I'm glad that my wife didn't go "Black Widow" on me to be with the OM, doesn't make what she did "good" though. It's the better of 2 awful choices, yes, but the important thing, I should NEVER have been in the situation of choosing between "affair" or "have her kill you off".

I've no idea what you did or didn't do to be honest. I don't know what happened to your wife in her past or between the two of you in your relationship. But if I would hazard a suggestion - and I usually don't - this statement sounds like deflection and minimizing (I say sounds like, again, I don't know you and this is an anonymous internet forum); I do hope you've gone deeper than that into your situation.

Oh, we have. 100's of e-mails, 100's of ours in IC/MC. But, in the end, I've come to believe I'm searching for something that doesn't actually exist. Sure, we can point to "bad kibbles", or "childhood trauma" or a million other things, but, I think it's fair to say, in pointing that all those things that "caused" the affair, we're actually pointing instead at the "human condition". My wife's kibble sucked for me too. I have more childhood trauma than she does. Sure, we can point at those things, but it's not really explaining cause/effect, it's just providing some context around it. The "deeper" you dig, the less it starts to sound like anything intelligible and turns into some sort of cross between political discourse and psychobabble.

Oh, we have. 100's of e-mails, 100's of ours in IC/MC. But, in the end, I've come to believe I'm searching for something that doesn't actually exist. Sure, we can point to "bad kibbles", or "childhood trauma" or a million other things, but, I think it's fair to say, in pointing that all those things that "caused" the affair, we're actually pointing instead at the "human condition". My wife's kibble sucked for me too. I have more childhood trauma than she does. Sure, we can point at those things, but it's not really explaining cause/effect, it's just providing some context around it. The "deeper" you dig, the less it starts to sound like anything intelligible and turns into some sort of cross between political discourse and psychobabble.

I can agree with that.

At the end of the day, there is no other explanation other than we wanted to do it. I made a decision to have an affair because I wanted to keep the feelings happening. There is no psychobabble in that.

The problem is, knowing and acknowledging that doesn't fix the person who wanted to do it. The only way forward is to figure out you don't want to repeat the behavior again, and you must heal what you can that may relate to that behavior. So we work on healing past trauma, we work on understanding what we learned in FOO, we work on being observant of our thoughts and behaviors, and things we need to take more accountability over. We look at our blindspots. We look at respect, dignity, love, integrity as concepts and what we believe about those concepts, and then align our thoughts and behaviors with it as much as we can.

Simply put: We try and become someone who would not make this choice again. It happens when someone can recognize they were an asshole and do not want to continue to conduct their lives as an asshole.

Really, I will relate it as closely as to what I can understand about your drug use (because personally, THAT is something I wouldn't choose to do to cope - no judgment, it's just we picked different things to numb ourselves or distract ourselves). You chose to do it, at least the first time or the first few times. After that it was an addiction. I am going to assume that you chose at some point that the addiction was destroying you and those around you and it was enough for you to work on yourself enough to stop making that decision. I honestly see the same pattern in myself. I chose an affair because it felt good, which made me want to do it and continue to do it. But in the end it was so destructive and selfish that it made me sink lower than I have in my entire life. I wanted to be different so I analyzed myself from my origins to my thoughts. I choose to manage my life differently. Hopefully that took the psychobabble out for you, but understand that the psychobabble is about the changes rather than really explaining the choice.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:46 PM, December 14th (Monday)]

The problem is, knowing and acknowledging that doesn't fix the person who wanted to do it.

"Wanted to do it" and "Did it" are two very different things. I totally get the "wanting to do" all kinds of awful stuff, right up to murder; in certain situations. Having an A is laughably easy to imagine "wanting to do it", there's a lot in an A that sounds like fun to me and I'm sure I'd enjoy. IMHO, it's the "doing it" part that needs fixing, not the wanting to do it. I'm not sure there's a way to heal my "wanting to do it" in fact, I'd argue that's just the human condition and our programming to want to spread our genes about; without that urge, our species would have died out a long time ago. Long way of saying, I don't think it's possible to eliminate the "want", I think it's possible, however, to eliminate the actions that can follow from that want.

Simply put: We try and become someone who would not make this choice again. It happens when someone can recognize they were an asshole and do not want to continue to conduct their lives as an asshole.

Here I agree, you don't make the same choice again. Want to or not, you decide that another choice is the right path forward.

Really, I will relate it as closely as to what I can understand about your drug use (because personally, THAT is something I wouldn't choose to do to cope - no judgment, it's just we picked different things to numb ourselves or distract ourselves)

It's funny you bring this up, just had an interesting discussion with someone else about this very topic. But the important thing, and the thing that I said in PM to someone else, I wasn't trying to "cope" with anything. I wasn't broken, I didn't get hit with an IED and trying to deal with the pain; and I wasn't an abused child or anything else I can point at and say "SEE, I was broken and just trying to cope". No, I was just a run of the mill, pleasure seeking POS who made a lot of really bad choices that took me down a very dark path. It wasn't FOO, or my girlfriend breaking up with me. I could give you lots of external "reasons" for what I did, but, the more honest answer is "I did it because the feeling was amazing and I enjoyed that feeling enough to deal with the downsides". I'd probably couple that with "And I didn't care who else got hurt in pursuit of that feeling". I kind of wish I could point to something deeper, some deep scar that I was trying to cover up by my actions, but I don't have one. I have a lot of little paper cuts and, I suppose, if I added all of them together, might point to something "significant enough" to excuse or explain my actions.

But I really don't think that's what it was. I was just pleasure seeking, drugs caused me a whole lot of pleasure, and I enjoyed that feeling enough to deal with the downsides.

Why did I stop? Primarily because of what you said, it was destroying everyone around me and I really didn't want to die. I figured another few years of the "ultimate good" feeling that drugs gave me until I died was probably less than the "reasonable good" feelings that I could get without them. Put another way, the cost/benefit analysis I did pointed to "you need to quit". It sounds a lot like your A and your reasons for ending it. But, this is the fundamental difference, at least in my eyes, drugs are "negative kibbles". I felt like crap about myself using drugs, and drugs never told me I was super cool or handsome. It was all about the sensation, the impossibly good feeling that I got from them. And maybe that's what an A is too, IDK, but if it is, well, it doesn't bode well for the BS "competing" with the feelings/sex/etc compared to the AP. Trust me, you can't compete with drugs, don't care how good you are in bed, or how good your kibbles are, the chemicals are better, you will be a distant 2nd. And that; at it's core, is one of my biggest problems that I still struggle with from the A; is there any way to "compete" with the OM and win? I don't think there is. And is there any way to square off "doing it for the kibbles" in an A with "having sex because I enjoy it" with your BS? Those are basically the 2 last, but most fundamental issues that I struggle with today.

DK, but if it is, well, it doesn't bode well for the BS "competing" with the feelings/sex/etc compared to the AP. Trust me, you can't compete with drugs, don't care how good you are in bed, or how good your kibbles are, the chemicals are better, you will be a distant 2nd.

I have never done drugs, but I doubt the feelings are the same here. There is some comparison with the arch of how things go on. Deciding to cross lines, continuing because it feels good, relying on that thing for your happiness. But, the chemicals your brain are producing are natural, and they are not any different than any natural euphoria that you have ever experienced.

And that; at it's core, is one of my biggest problems that I still struggle with from the A; is there any way to "compete" with the OM and win? I don't think there is. And is there any way to square off "doing it for the kibbles" in an A with "having sex because I enjoy it" with your BS? Those are basically the 2 last, but most fundamental issues that I struggle with tod

What does your wife say about it?

Here is what I say about it (not that what I say is the same as what she thinks). Keep in mind I am pissed at my husband, we have one foot in and one foot out right now. Regardless of what I did, this new shit hurts me deeply. I say all that because a lot of the time I am in a what's left to lose mentality and am probably at the rawest state of honesty yet.

So, for me, and this is the truth - none of it was worth any of it. I didn't spend the last 3.5 years trying to recover with him without what he means to me to be the most important. I wish like hell I didn't make the choices I made, and when things were getting good between us again, there would be nothing to compare it to. There is such substance and richness there that could not compete with anything as cheap as an affair.

I understand where you are coming from, it will never change that it happened. Whatever was there was there. Everyone is different but the climb back was the biggest struggle of my life. I would not have gone through that hard work for the AP. I mean the work I did on myself, yeah I get that was something I greatly benefit from. But, if my H had left, I don't think I would have gone to the extent I did because he does really matter that much to me. There just isn't any comparison. And I am still here fighting. If my affair experience was so great, don't you think that I would just divorce and do something else?

And, I can understand there is nothing I can say that takes any of that away or makes it better for you. I only try and share so you can take it back and do what you want with it, if anything. If it helps a conversation, or a thought process at all then I keep trying.

Also, you mentioned that you didn't do it to cope - I get that. I think people have affairs out of boredom sometimes as well. Everyone is different, motivated differently. It doesn't mean that the results are not simliar.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:27 AM, December 15th (Tuesday)]