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Absolutely, I agree with you that people can change and grow. That's a major premise of the "Wayward Side" discussion board. And "Reconciliation," and "New Beginnings." There'd be no point in discussing any of this if it weren't possible for a person to change, grow. BSs included.

When I said, "inevitable," I meant it in terms of the 1st Law of Motion (an object will not change its motion unless a force acts upon it). I believe people work the same way. There has to be an interruption for a change in motion. It's one of the reasons that drawing one's own boundaries can have a domino effect for others, even though one draws them for him or herself and not anyone else.

It seems that some people choose infidelity despite an initial internal struggle, often precipitated by some sort of internal or external crisis, whereas serial cheaters or addicts were likely never going to be faithful unless something or someone intervened to force them to face their character weaknesses/FOO issues/whatever. Eventually, for those WSs the shine would wear off of their marriage and they would react by seeking a new experience with a different person. Or seek the adrenaline high that comes with a new, illicit relationship. Either way, the wayward mindset has to come first on some level for everyone. Even getting drunk and having a one night stand involves what we'd consider a wayward mindset.

And I believe, myself included, that most people are capable of much crappier choices and thought patterns than they'd like to think they are, even if it we aren't talking infidelity. Your WH sounds to be capable of a scary level of compartmentalization (which has me yelling, "Danger, Will Robinson!" esp. combined with his response to the polygraph) but guess I that belief is why I leave room for the possibility of redemption for him...*if* he is truly motivated to look at the truth of your choices, his choices, your marriage. Nothing makes me as snarky or angry as an unremorseful cheater or affair partner, but I have a harder time than some as labeling all BS/WS as us/them. Though I can understand why some BSs have been so shattered that they do.

To be clear, I don't challenge that you took responsibility for your affair being a choice. It just seemed that he saw it more as something you couldn't control, which tends to make it easier to forgive. That's based on what he shared here...which wasn't a lot. I do realize that what he discussed with you in real life was much more nuanced and complex. Like I said, all of our conjecture comes from being a few degrees removed.

Ha, I'm not the best at this armchair psychology thing it seems. I do hope you've gotten some mental break from this somewhere. I tend to analyze problems to the max--my brain doesn't like to sleep--but it's difficult to keep any kind of perspective when my mind has been on a constant loop. Have you been able to confide in anyone? You're certainly on the mind of many people here on SI.

One day at a time, sister.

Edited to add: WTF??? I hit enter before refreshing my browser. I'm so sorry to hear the AP is trying to insert herself. How very pathetic. And unoriginal. I'm happy to hear that he went to you with it.

[This message edited by RosesandThorns at 6:55 PM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

Looking at the bright side:

It's good that he didn't let KISA instincts influence him into any kind of response.

It's good that he contacted you immediately.

It's good that he was out of town, because it confirms for her that he's acting on his own behalf and not under your watchful eye.

It's good, overall, that her attempt to re-insert herself in your relationship backfired, bringing you and TTP a tiny bit closer to restored trust.

BSR- I am sure that will kick in when I can get myself back under control. I want to go to the c***s house and spit in her fucking horse face. I can’t help it if that is hypocritical. But seriously, what kind of dumb ass communication did these two have that she didn’t even know that he had a vasectomy. It just blows my mind.

I know you are right though.

He comes back tomorrow.

To answer a couple other posts:

No I haven’t told anyone yet. I went to tell my longtime friend of close to 40 years but when I called she had gotten some pretty rotten news and I couldn’t bring myself to change the course of the conversation.

Waited too long- yes, I am having trouble seeing it as a revenge affair too. Although I guess the name you put with it doesn’t matter a whole lot. Maybe he was angry and he did it to get back at me. I am not really sure it makes a difference. But, thatis not what I am picking up. I will say that he now shows a pattern of not being able to show his anger with me so it could be that as well. If he continues along in IC, I may start MC earlier because I think we really need to do some digging together. Too early yet, but I won’t wait as long as we did the first time.

I don’t know if he would have done it without my affair or not and probably no one could really ever know for sure. I know for a fact that was some of the justification. The imbalance you speak of - I wasn’t feeling that for a long time but I thought it was because he healed. Likely his guilt made it that way. He was treating me better than I remember for a long time. He claims it was genuine but he needs to evaluate that more. I don’t buy it.

This sucks- we did some attachment style stuff in MC. But that was a couple of years ago. I will give it a try when we start back to MC. I scored almost evenly in all four categories in an online quiz I did recently. The highest one was fearful avoidance. But there was maybe a four point spread between that one and any of the others. So maybe I answered one more question in that direction then the others.

Roses- I think you are a deeper thinker than me. I am having a hard time kind of wrapping my mind around all that. I will think more on it. I still believe for me it wasn’t inevitable. It was a decision that I willingly made. So I might not be following the thought path. I don’t think my H has incredible compartmentalizations or that it’s something extraordinary. I have noticed men are naturally better at that for some reason. I haven’t ruled out that maybe I am getting ready to find out he is a serial cheater or something and maybe if so then I will probably think you are right. His need to defend me while hurting me in the worst way possible seems diabolical on paper at least so I can see where you derive that. But I just think it had more simplicity somehow. I think that my mental health issues had him scared enough to stop from divorcing me, so why wouldn’t he have concerns about whether people were making it worse? I also think that he got some feeling from reading what I was writing that I was getting better too. So he didn’t force me to leave the site, though we had a few discussions around it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:24 PM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

I want to go to the c***s house and spit in her fucking horse face.

I think anyone would feel that way in your shoes.

Just to warn you, the COW in my situation didn’t stop for 6 months. It would be super sporadic, but she would get drunk or something and send a random email. She really thought my WH was the love of her life and she didn’t get the closure she wanted. She made one last attempt on a social media account and I think when she was immediately blocked, she finally got the message. She was single though, so had no repercussions.

At first I thought it was more “evil” that he was posting defending you when he was cheating, but the more I think about it, it’s just typical cheater stuff. That ability to be keep things separate and to be really crappy when you’re cheating just seems to be normal. I have certain things my WH did that I haven’t forgiven him for because it’s just too much, how he could he do that during that time? On that day, under that circumstance? I think most have us have gone through that. It’s just the selfish, entitled cheating mindset that the wayward is in at that time. Then Dday happens and they’re horrified and they have no idea how they didn’t put two and two together and didn’t realize how bad that would be.

I’m sorry she reached out, I know it sucks. Everything about all of this sucks. I hope you’re doing ok tonight. I will say this, if you find a good marriage counselor, it can be a game changer. I know for a fact I would not still be married if it weren’t for mine. He’s so good at getting me to talk about my feelings productively and getting my WH to listen and act.

HO, you are going through hell right now, so if anything I say makes it worse or seems like too much, you have a right to ignore it, full stop. It won't offend me.

I suppose I worry about his potential to manipulate you. His desire to prevent you from potentially melting down, trying to hold things together, does seem possible, too. There are different ways to look at his posts. I can't lie, the thought that he's cheated before crossed my mind, but not in a way that seemed like a smoking gun. It's possible but I wasn't actually implying that with my post...more that maybe being a BS triggered whatever issues that he already had, and his response, his choice was to do something to make himself feel better and/or that he felt entitled to. Resentment colors your sense of entitlement. All of that is conjecture, though. We can't read his mind, and I can't even talk to him, let alone look him in the eye. Eventually, you're the only one who will be able to decide that.

I'm sorry you're so deep in the muck. At some point, a polygraph seems like a valid idea, so you can feel like you've gotten to the bottom of the muck to be able to dig out again. It can be so, so hard to figure out if you've finally got full disclosure. It took me about 3 years to be confident. And my circumstances were much less complicated.

I am an ambivalent/chaotic attachment and my husband tends towards avoidant. Used to be much more so. Avoidants are excellent at compartmentalizing, especially if they're men, and especially if they're of a certain generation, as you said. My husband is also better part of a decade older than myself, and I think that does tend to create a certain unequal dynamic (as I think you described), in which I assumed he was superior at being an adult and he felt like he could make decisions for me and shouldn't burden me with his internal struggles.

At this point, you've just gotten a flood of negative chemicals due to AP's little texting game, so if you're still reading, it's probably best not to tackle any of this right now. Meditate, watch a comedy, put AP's face on a dart board.

Is it very bad that I think it would be fun to play some target practice with AP's @$$? (Hopefully I won't censored for violence. Not literally threatening anyone.) It's just...the thought that she went mining for gold but ended up with an @$$ full of lead, instead...it just tickles me.

And no, I don't think it's hypocritical to be angry at her. You are a fWW, not a current. It's not he sum of who you are.

This sucks - Exactly what I think. Typical Ws bullcrap. No logic applied. Maybe it’s worse than that, but so far I don’t think so.

So the OBS called. He says that she swears she didn’t contact him. Apparently he has let her back in the house and wants to work it out with her. I don’t think H is lying about this, I saw screen shots. But I did my part in telling him. I suppose it’s always possible H is lying but that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I point blank asked the guy if she is pregnant and he gave a weird noncommittal noise. I assume if she is that it belongs to obs and maybe that’s how she is weaseling her way back.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:36 PM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

I point blank asked the guy if she is pregnant and he gave a weird noncommittal noise.

That's odd. I wonder if she's talked him into joining forces with her to take revenge on both of you. They're both out of a job now due to this affair. You said he tried to convince your H to divorce you after your A, and obviously neither of them is happy with your H. I'd tread carefully where he's concerned.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 10:05 PM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

So they were our property managers but they have other properties and other folks they do things for. I imagine that there were some gaps to fill but they aren’t out of work. They have their own company.

I don’t feel like the answer really has an impact on me either way, if she is I know that’s got nothing to do with H. I think he just sounded weary and maybe even wondered if I was trying to cause trouble for her because I was mad. He wasn’t rude to me or anything he just sounded tired and like he didn’t want to deal with anything else today.

If she is pregnant then he knows she did text h. Anyway, I will leave them be unless she keeps contacting him. The balls on this woman.

Hey Hiking, can I first say that your c-bomb line did make me spit my tea over my keyboard so can I thankyou for that! And I believe you speak for us all on that one!

You're getting a ton of advice and I know you are processing, processing, processing, and I understand how you feel about context and why you are struggling to completely detach from whether you have a part to play in his A.

The fact is you may have a part to play in his unhappiness, but not his A.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion of their M and also to leave that M even if they are the only one of the two who is unhappy/unsatisfied. And maybe your A took him to that place. But he had a huge range of options, from telling you he was struggling to cope to picking up his coat and walking out the door. The option he didn't have was to have an A.

Maybe your A helped point him in a direction, but it didn't make him take the first step, or the steps after. That's all on him. So you have to give yourself a break here and stop over-thinking your part in this.

You are in a good position to know what drives an A, mostly fantasy. In fact you previously spent a lot of time explaining that very notion (very valuably), so my biggest advice would be to look back and take your own advice!

And finally, if he's definitely out of the A, give yourself time. Whatever you choose, you need to breath, take a moment and remember that you don't have to sprint to any conclusion, or rush to fix or break this, and that whatever choice you make, it's ok.

But seriously, what kind of dumb ass communication did these two have that she didn’t even know that he had a vasectomy.

Um, normal cheater communication. You just don't have the time to squeeze in that kind of mundane information when there's so much to complain about your spouses and so much to praise about the cheaters.

I'm sorry the AP is trying to weasel back in. If she is indeed pregnant, it's either a big unfortunate coincidence or it was premeditated. I just can't believe that there are women that still try to secure a man by getting pregnant. It's even dumber than having an affair.

And it's not hypocritical to say those things about AP, it's the truth.

FWIW, I'm rooting for you HO. Your posts on SI were definitely some of the most helpful to me and I wish you the best. Hugs, if you want them

Well, it gets better...

I got a text from OBS this morning and he apologized for being weird last night, apparently he had smoked all day and was really high. I can't believe that didn't dawn on me. He said she was there with him but he believes she did contact H.

I decided to stop giving her anything that made her feel important. I just said "No problem, she is irrelevant to me, I only wanted you to know to protect you." That's it. I didn't ask any more questions, and I am not going to keep feeding her anything to make her feel like she has upset me or made me nervous about anything. Fuck her.

Hey Hiking, can I first say that your c-bomb line did make me spit my tea over my keyboard so can I thankyou for that! And I believe you speak for us all on that one!

I wish I was trying to be funny. I had actually said some other stuff but I didn't want to worry anyone so I deleted it.

You're getting a ton of advice and I know you are processing, processing, processing, and I understand how you feel about context and why you are struggling to completely detach from whether you have a part to play in his A.

The fact is you may have a part to play in his unhappiness, but not his A

I keep thinking I am actually doing okay separating it, and I don't feel I am to blame for him doing this. I feel like he has done it to himself as much as he has me. I know that's a weird thing to say, but this shit isn't fun from his role either and he has complicated things spectacularly for himself. I wouldn't want to have to go back to day 1 as the WS for the world, either.

I feel like all these truths are true at once:

1. Yes, I definitely contributed to his unhappiness, and unlike many of the BS's here I did so willfully and unnecessarily. I didn't just contribute to his unhappiness, I created his unhappiness with me as his wife. I took away my value as his wife. And I gave him the anger to precipitate his sense of entitlement.

2. Unhappiness is not a reason to cheat. And noone is entitled to cheat.

3. I will never know if he would have done it without my cheating, unless I learn there have been others. But, it doesn't matter why - the results are still the same. What he needs to do is still the same.

4. He is not a safe partner for me right now, and I have to take most of what he says with a grain of salt because I do not know the truth. He has opened my eyes now and I will keep them open.

5. That doesn't mean I haven't been given the truth either. That remains to be seen.

6. As long as he is doing what he needs to be doing, I will continue to try to add to the trust I have built so far as the WS. That is not a veiled threat to cheat, I just mean I will still provide him the transparency I would have otherwise, I will still do that side of the street in interest of positioning us for a successful outcome. I will not contribute any more to our failure.

7. At the same time my real feeling right now is I don't owe him a goddamned thing. Doesn't matter, I owe it to myself. I will only do my part, he has to do his.

8. I think it helps that am familiar with WS bullshit. I am watching for it, spotting it, and for the most part in those ways I do not really take it personally. That part is all his shit, just like it was my shit. I do think this is an advantage because it's letting me be proactive rather than reactive and reeling at shit he says. I expect him to be full of shit.

9. I will not tolerate lying, TT, breaking NC. I do not offer second chances on that. This is his second chance he better grab that by the horns and hold on.

10. Some of what he has told me I am not sure how I come back from. At the same time, my logical self knows its too early to call.

So, overall, if I am talking about my affair or how it effected him, it's just factual. It does not change my boundaries at all. I feel like being here and reading and writing to all you guys over the last 3 years, there are ways that I can let my logic dictate my terms. I had a head start on a lot of knowledge.

It was good to write all that out, I think I might print that list and refer back to it. I mean it all, but I am having a moment of clarity right now. Calm is a fleeting thing and I need to hold myself to what I just said.

There is a lot of grey area when it comes to my emotions and those are all over the place. I know I can't always trust my emotions.

I am doing all the things I have been doing for the past couple of years - being mindful of my thoughts - are they true, are they helpful, etc. Managing self talk is something I practiced every day. I feel kind of okay this morning, but I did just get done giving the AP a big fuck you through her OBS, so I might be stitched together on caffeine and adrenaline.

I still feel exhausted by it all, and I don't feel like making myself do the chores or any of that. He will be coming home today to a pile of laundry and dishes. I have been having takeout ever day. I have to get some of this under control because I have worked really hard to find my happy path, take care of myself, get fit. I see people on here say they lose a lot of weight. Nope, if I am upset I eat and sit around and watch TV. I have been a total sloth this week and I gotta give myself a push.

I have been a total sloth this week and I gotta give myself a push.

Insert here the image of one of those life size cardboard cutouts of a famous person you can get your pretend picture taken with, only, this cutout is of me, pointing at your running shoes.

USE that adrenaline and caffeine.

<gentle PUSH>

[This message edited by Owl6118 at 9:32 AM, October 29th (Thursday)]

Some of what he has told me I am not sure how I come back from. At the same time, my logical self knows its too early to call.

Please understand, first of all, that I'm not saying this out of some weird, voyeuristic impulse for details, but this stood out to me as something you could maybe get some more help for from us BSes if you wanted to tell us what kinds of things/revelations you're talking about here. We have all had to come back from some pretty awful stuff, and we have a wide range of experiences and stories.

It probably is too early to process some of the things you've discovered - remember, even as a former WS who has been working on themselves for a long time and has been learning about infidelity recovery (whether that means D or R) on this site, you are a new BS and it takes awhile for the initial shock to really dissipate in a meaningful way. I didn't even realize I was IN shock until it started to wear off, and it took awhile.

Anyway - I just wanted to say that. It's totally up to you how much detail you share about what specifically you are struggling with the most, but maybe it would help to purge some of it here so you're not carrying it around alone.

Some of it I am just not ready to talk about. I don't know if I ever will want to talk about it to be honest. I have IC tomorrow, and as I process this maybe I will just spew it all over the place. Right now it's too tender and I can't bear to have people in this forum pulling out that fact when I feel weak about something. I don't think people intentionally do it to be mean, but I see a lot of things that say "This is the person who did XYZ, and you are allowing it" sort of thing. I can't have it thrown back at me, it's bad enough it exists.

I will tell you one of the ones that is more borderline. It bothers me a whole lot right now and occupies a great deal of my thoughts, but I don't see it as completely unsurmountable.

ETA: WHAT FOLLOWS COULD BE TRIGGERY AND IS ADULT CONTENT. I wanted to warn People so you can stop reading if needed.

So, while they were having sex once she had him tell her how much better this or that was than with me. You like my blowjobs better don't ya kind of thing. So, I know for a fact it would have been hard for him not to be thinking of me during sex. That was not my experience at all, I blocked him out. Not that it makes it better, but it makes it different.

At one point during this same session she said "Tell me how much more you like my pussy than hers" and when he answered she got off. He claims he asked her not to do that to him again after that, but still...EWWWW. And, why was he able to continue through this whole session? I mean for a woman we can just keep going, but for a man they have to keep an erection. He doesn't think he finished (which makes me think the answer is probably Hell Yeah he did), but both of them have said there was performance issues on his end several times. This is one of the questions I am planning to talk to the polygraph admin about how to word. I don't believe he doesn't know if he finished. He says he really doesn't think he did.

This was fairly early on, and there was a lot of sessions, so again that's not like my experience with disclosing. It was all recent and there was a limited amount there to discuss. And, maybe I am wrong but if the AP did that to me, it would have been a huge turn off and would have probably been enough for me to think he was psycho and get away from him.

So, some of it is the stark difference in their situation and it's hard for me to relate to at all. Some of it is just that's completely fucked up and just no. No.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:49 AM, October 29th (Thursday)]

10. Some of what he has told me I am not sure how I come back from. At the same time, my logical self knows its too early to call.

This is partially true, there will be things that you don’t really come back from, not 100%. Unfortunately with those details the only thing I found it worked for me was desensitisation. I’m sure you’re familiar with it, it is a painful process to get there.

I’m sorry you’re going through this, it really sucks. What’s worse is the realisation that some of these trauma reactions are staying and you need to learn to manage them instead of actually expect them to totally disappear.

I only recently noticed that when I have non affair related stressors in my day to day life, affair triggers suddenly come back and I experience WTAF moments in the middle of the most innocent activities.

I hope the AP does one and leaves you both alone, can’t believe she’s trying to pull the pregnancy trick, gosh they’re all so fucking predictable, I almost felt like yawning reading that. Saying that “our” AP started claiming that about 7months after dday, she’s a slow learner, it did make me worry for a couple of days. Next act: going wild on social media telling everyone who may listen how she’d never stay with a liar and a cheat 🤦‍♀️.

Saying that “our” AP started claiming that about 7months after dday, she’s a slow learner, it did make me worry for a couple of days.

Yes. First, supposedly they haven't had sex since early March. Second, the dumb bitch doesn't realize I have had sex with him bareback at least 3 times a week for 20 years and never got pregnant because his vasectomy is fine.

She may have known, after I have had some time to calm down I realized she might have been playing the sympathy card because she really had him believing that OBS treats her like shit.

BTW, I don't believe that at all. He is actually a very nice man and I saw them together many times and how he was with her. And, he was always doing things for her. "I have to go home early to coach (her son from a previous relationship's) game" "I need to go wash her car", "let me check with her about what she would like to do about that". She is an idiot.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:59 AM, October 29th (Thursday)]

Yes, print that list out! That's some impressive processing of a crap ton of info, thoughts, and feelings.

I doubt that the OBS has a lot of factual info to deliver. I'd be surprised if she's being honest with him, especially if he's taken her back in. Looking for answers there seems like an exercise in frustration.

Perhaps this is a good time to pursue a constructive hobby that does not include WS. I suggest this because the negative flood of chemicals your body gets from all of this needs something to combat it. Your mind could use an outlet, too. Owl mentioned running, which is excellent. Anything positive is good, doesn't have to be a big deal. You've been working hard at R with him for the past few years, but you have your own separate paths to take in your recovery now, until and unless he proves he's safe for you.

Please forgive me if I've been talking down to you. My advice fairy tendencies are strong. But like most here, I'm rooting for your healing, Hiking Out.

No, I don't feel like anyone has been talking down to me at all. I have appreciated everyone's love and support, their knowledge, being able to circle things on a map and assuring me it's normal. Sometimes I think I am losing my shit and then others I feel very in control. It's a lot but as I said I have had the benefit of this site for years, I have a headstart because of that.

Emotionally, that's going to be a different timeline. But, I do feel like I was able to act early and do some things I would not be able to do otherwise.

This is a situation where you shouldn’t compare your As. The situation you described: some women get high on winning one over another woman. (I’m refraining here from referencing your A so please put your BS hat on). I’d venture and say that a lot of women who have affairs with MM feel high from having another woman’s man. My WH’s AP was all about winning and I have to say when I first saw her social media posts about how she won I had no clue what the fuck she’s talking about.

The AP in your H’s case obviously had a shit self esteem and needed to fill her bucket by comparing even her pussy with another woman’s (eww!).

As to your H: as you know, the highs of an affair kind of overshadow everything else. I was actually texting and asking my WH if he’s cheating on me 😭 the day he actually took off from work to go on a fuckfest with his AP. I also struggled to understand how could he maintain an erection when I literally just texted “are you cheating on me?” (For the context I emailed his work email and got an out of office, I actually joked in my text asking him that 😞 ) . But he did maintain an erection, not once but twice and spent a lovely day with his AP.

How did I process? Well it took a while but I understood that the A highs are above everything. I understood this when it dawned on me that nothing mattered. Our kids didn’t matter. Their pain going from seeing their parents laughing, kissing, holding hands (yes, even during the A, how is that for compartmentalisation) to a wreck of a mother and an absent minded father didn’t matter. So how could I expect a text from me to bring any guilt?

Coming back from it is impossible. At least for me it is. But as I said, context and understanding that we are broken human beings in our own ways even if we find it hard to relate, and proof that the WS is working on addressing that is what makes you keep going.

As to your H’s conversation with the AP... I would probably be stuck more on how did he even find that attractive? If I’d have sex now with a guy who’s asking me if his junk is bigger than my ex or whatever I’d be like “erm... you have serious problems and I just dried up, no thanks”.

You were in your box, the one where the cheating spouse puts their BS whilst cheating, you became fictional. Or it may have made him feel powerful, having this woman wanting to compare herself to his wife (hence reinforcing he already had the better deal at home)? My WH even took out a stunning picture of me and shoved it in his AP’s face at one point randomly to show her how beautiful I was. How fucked up is that? I guess the competition was weaning off and the AP was not bending herself into a pretzel anymore (BJs were drying) so he had to up his game?

Affairs are fucked up. And this detail will go around in your head until you will decide to put it in the “processed” file once you accept that yes, cheaters do such cruel and shocking things during an A that you cannot recognise them as a human being.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 11:36 AM, October 29th (Thursday)]