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I am amazed at what WSs usually don’t seem to see or ‘get’.

For example, Thumos just shared that his stbxWW is spending a lot of time and energy into planning his birthday celebration, and even has a certain flair for such planning and organizing. I would imagine this goes down to the tiniest details.

Yet Thumos has shared with her he has no interest.

But the things Thumos DID tell her he had an interest in while they were trying to R (or at least he was), she showed absolutely none of this detailed oriented planning and organization.

Why the hell didn’t she show this 110% effort into giving her BH what he DID ask for?

She is obviously capable of such efforts.

In fact, if WWTL is right, and this is some sort of a ‘Hail Mary’ to change Thumos’ mind about the D, why can’t she realize that an over the top, dedicated effort to give him what he DID ask for rather than something he has expressed no interest in would have a better chance of success? (Though based on Thumos’ words, that ship has probably already sailed anyway)

I am simply gobsmacked that so many WS just simply can’t seem to grasp that frivolities (especially those the BS has shown zero interest in) are not going to change the equation on D.

Dyokemm, I’m not sure if you were referring to my post, but I wasn’t even talking about the birthday plans—I was referring to Thumos saying his WW is overall not being cooperative with the D process.

Whether you agree or not, there IS a general tone on SI that if a WS readily acquiesces to divorce, they are not doing all they can to prove both true remorse and desire to stay married to their BS. That is all I was commenting on. I have followed Thumos’s posts from the beginning and I am aware that his W has done nothing in a more appropriate timeframe to cause Thumos to want to reconcile.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 7:42 PM, November 20th (Friday)]

Darkness Falls,

No....I wasn’t referring to your post at all.

My comment was on how Thumos shared that his stbxWW was so involved in organizing a birthday party he has said he has no interest in.....

Yet during the entire time he was still trying to discover if R was possible, she put very little effort into giving him the things he DID ask for.

That, and a reference to WWTL saying he sees this(her birthday celebration planning) as some form of a ‘Hail Mary’ to try to get Thumos to change his mind on D.

My comment in reference to both is that I am often stunned at how so many WS don’t seem to ‘get’ it.

Giving your BS something they DO NOT have an interest in, no matter how meticulously or extravagantly planned and carried out, while ignoring or showing no effort on the things they actually HAVE asked for is insane imo.

It is jaw dropping level obtuseness as I see it.

Instead of going ‘over the top’ on gestures the BS doesn’t want, why the hell don’t you give a maximum effort on the things they do? I mean, assuming the WS hopes their efforts may change a BS’s mind about D.

@dyokemm

Your spot on. I see in Thumos thread exactly what I’m experiencing. I can see my WGF is thinking about me all the time. There are hundreds of gestures daily that show me in her way she is trying to make amends but they’re the wrong gestures. Gifts, affection, sex, meals, date nights, planning days out, she knocking it out of the park showing me what a loving relationship looks like, showing me what I have been going without for almost our entire relationship. Some of this stuff is hard work and I just cannot fathom why if she’s capable of doing all this why she isn’t capable of attending a weekly IC meeting, or writing out a timeline, or read a few books or, or, or.....

I just don’t get it.

Instead of going ‘over the top’ on gestures the BS doesn’t want, why the hell don’t you give a maximum effort on the things they do?

Some of this stuff is hard work and I just cannot fathom why if she’s capable of doing all this why she isn’t capable of attending a weekly IC meeting, or writing out a timeline, or read a few books or, or, or.....

Because all of the things you two mentioned are external efforts. They don't require the WS to work on the internal issues. Being brutally honest with themselves and their BS seems like a suicide mission. Some just can't seem to do it.

My guess is Thumos's WS still has hope that he's not going to pull the plug. Honestly I don't blame her. It's been four years after all. So the big party is just continuing the actions she's been doing for years.

True it’s been four years since DDAY but we did a lot of nonsense in the first three years and it’s been an eventful one year since I put my foot down and starting being unremitting in demanding what I want. I’m a lot different than I was a year ago.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:36 PM, November 24th (Tuesday)]

Thumos,

Every time you post about your situation I try to think of a reason she refuses to tell you the truth at this point.

I keep coming back to the same answer. Whatever shes holding back is so bad that she would rather continue to "play chicken " with you.

Just baffling.

I suspect whatever happened with his WW has a lot more to do with her intentions.

The oddity of the wine cooler, why not get rid of it unless it meant something.

The family play dates...

The comments that the VAR picked about "why we married a couple of assholes".

The destruction of the phone messages.

I'm almost curious if she thought she had some kind of possible future with the muppet, and after Dday it all came falling down when he chose his wife.

Whatever it is, it must be significant enough to be a presumed automatic divorce in her mind.

[This message edited by blahblahblahe at 8:45 PM, November 24th (Tuesday)]

I’ve come to the same conclusions as both BR and blahblah - which ironically has driven me toward divorce.

For the record, I’m not much of an asshole. I do a reasonable job of being one here and there on SI, but a lot of people IRL like me, because I’m a likable guy with a charming personality and a good smile and a hail-fellow-well-met outgoing nature when I want to be that way.

That was one of the more confusing statements my WW made in her convo with the AP.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:10 PM, November 24th (Tuesday)]

This is exactly my thoughts

I’ve told my WGF multiple times we are heading for failure, that statistics are not in our favour and those precious few maybe 5% who are “truly” happy following something as severe as infidelity had to work f*cking hard and tick every box in every list of R they could find. She assures me she wants that future, that mythical stronger, more loving relationship but is absolutely convinced we can get there without all the work because “we’re special” and “we’re best friends” and “we’re soulmates”

I cannot fathom how something as simple as IC my current beef is such a show stopper for her. My gut tells me that she’s worried a trained professional will either uncover something greater, something else, prior infidelity or will blame it all in her (which of course is a fact) and therefore like Thumos wife is willing to play chicken, willing to face a future where we end up in the circa 40% who stay together but are not happy, perhaps with some resentment, maybe some hate. The fact that she is willing to continue to watch me squirm as I battle with enforcing boundaries and she pushes against them like a adolescent makes me question does she really love me, does she even know what that is. She is more comfortable flinching every time I open my mouth because she thinks my next words are going to be “I’m done” than she is sitting in front of a therapist who I’ve told her time and time again is for her not me.

I know I havnt done everything I could do either, I’ve struggled to enforce those boundaries, constantly butting up against the accusation of being “controlling” that was thrown at me on Dday but also because I don’t want to live that life either. I never felt the need to monitor her phone, say when she could or could not go out, need to know where she is every second of every day and I don’t want to start that now. This in turn has allowed my WGF think I’m doing okay, she is very naiave.

So I watch what a stronger version of me might achieve, I watch Thumos story and I observe that even though he has enforced those boundaries and even declared that he is “done” and filling for D and I witness that still nothing has changed, his WW is still unable to do what he has asked. And I wonder if like many others have said above that whatever his WW is holding onto, in her mind is certain D whereas the gambit she has been playing so far has worked for 4 years so why will it not work going forwards. I fear he and probably I will have to take it the very edge maybe over the edge before the message sinks in.

I think and possibly Thumos have projected the message over time that we will tolerate, we will procrastinate, we will capitulate and I am very sad to see that even though Thumos has taken decisive action recently, it appears to have made zero difference. It’s seems as if we’re locked into a zero-sum game where the happiness of one person can only be achieved with equal and opposite loses by the other.

@thumos I wish you strength brother as you continue to do what is best for you and you children

Oh and happy 50th for whenever that is 🍻

[This message edited by TwoDozen at 5:15 AM, November 25th (Wednesday)]

TD, she likey loves you in the only way in which she is capable. But that isn't what really matters. What matters is if she loves you like you want to be loved. That answer is a definitive 'no'.

As for the 'playing chicken' analogy...that isn't quite right. There is a side of her that she wants nobody to see...nobody to know...not even herself...so she buries it.

All of the things she is doing to get you to ignore that side are all of the things she does to herself to avoid it. It has little to do with you, other than she knows the tactics she has used on herself have worked thus far. She has sold herself; now she is hoping to sell you. It is likely all she knows, and is scared to death to confront that side with herself, let alone a therapist.

Thumos' wife tried much of the same until he got sick and tired of being sick and tired. When you reach that point, you will stop allowing her to compromise your boundaries...which you are doing every time you 'try' to get her to recognize them.

As for the 'playing chicken' analogy...that isn't quite right. There is a side of her that she wants nobody to see...nobody to know...not even herself...so she buries it.

All of the things she is doing to get you to ignore that side are all of the things she does to herself to avoid it. It has little to do with you, other than she knows the tactics she has used on herself have worked thus far. She has sold herself; now she is hoping to sell you. It is likely all she knows, and is scared to death to confront that side with herself, let alone a therapist.

I don't fully agree with this. I think Thumos and TD have it right because someone who is subconsciously avoiding would go to IC and act like nothing is wrong and they have no idea why they need to be there which DOES happen with WSes. Or they will act like it's a 1 party MC session because the real issue is the mess that they made of the marriage and not the issues inside themselves. People who truly want to avoid that part of themselves can pretty easily do it even with a therapist and still check off the IC box if that is all that they are trying to hide.

Both Thumos and TD have point blank asked their WW/WGF about the avoidance and each had to make a conscious choice whether to address it or not. Each have been told what is expected of them over and over again. Each has come to the conclusion that if they give Thumos and TD more of X, they won't have to do Y. There may be elements of fear, elements of not wanting the truth of themselves to be revealed, but this IS a conscious and calculated decision they are making to play a game of chance/chicken. And this isn't a situation where they can claim ignorance because people get tested in this way their whole lives. Starting in high school, every student is handed a rubric of exactly what they must do to pass the class and get a good grade. Some times even earlier. Every employer gives an employee a rundown of their expectations and gives them performance reviews and feedback. If these two waywards weren't able to realize that if they don't do what is expected of them that they're not likely to stay married, they probably weren't very good students or employees thinking they could skate by on not doing anything too difficult or inconvenient for them.

Could you imagine treating your boss the way they are treating Thumos or TD? Bringing them coffee and lunch to get out of doing your job and then avoiding their questions when they find out? How long do you think it would take to get fired? Point is - these women aren't children or mentally handicapped. They know what they're doing and it doesn't really matter if one of the reasons why is fear and avoidance.

@thumos my apologies as I appear to have h/j your thread which was never my intention. As mentioned I observed many similarities from your story to my own and was hoping to take some knowledge from your experience being 3 years ahead of me. Forewarned being forearmed and all that. So apologies again and I am pleased that you have at least made your own peace with your route forward.

@farsidejunky @nekonamida really appreciate you both offering your viewpoints. Some very interesting points which as you would expect raise more questions than they give Me answers.

I think and possibly Thumos have projected the message over time that we will tolerate, we will procrastinate, we will capitulate and I am very sad to see that even though Thumos has taken decisive action recently, it appears to have made zero difference. It’s seems as if we’re locked into a zero-sum game where the happiness of one person can only be achieved with equal and opposite loses by the other.

I don’t consider this a thread jack at all and it’s spot on analysis of our situations. Given our years together and our kids and their stability, I think I might have been able to see my way clear to at least really trying for R if I felt like my WW had been authentic and transparent from day 1.

But she spent the first few years after DDAY avoiding, hiding, not doing things I asked, and giving me a lot of horrible justifications that still ring in my head in spite of her apologies (like telling me I’m sexually immature bc I could not accept the “meaningless sex” she had with AP).

Just the process leading up to the polygraph and the disrespect and drama around that was a dealbreaker for me on top of all of the other horrible things. Just that one thing.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:51 AM, November 25th (Wednesday)]

@Thumos just for the record, I do not believe you to be an "asshole" of any kind.

I believe it was an attempt by your wife to create some kind of bonding moment with the putz.

Neko:

You may be right. And in fairness, Thumos is much better qualified to analyze his STBXWW innperson than an internet stranger.

The point I was making was that many wayward's have that side, which they bury and hide from everyone, to include themselves. They wrap it in shame and denial. That side is often dark...but not necessarily nefarious.

That said, what is nefarious is the lengths they are willing to go to KEEP that side hidden. Then you have what we see here, where any form of desperate manipulation, DARVO, sex bombing, or any number of other manipulation tactics are preferred over the wayward having to take a look into the proverbial mirror. The pain associated with that shame far exceeds all else.

[This message edited by farsidejunky at 6:36 PM, November 25th (Wednesday)]

Hadn’t come across the term DARVO before so just looked it up - wow that’s hits the nail on the head.

I got a lot of DARVO - subtler than many others but still there. The classic DARVO was after her panic attack and I told her I was still going to need her to do the polygraph. She lashed out yelling “you’re going to break up our family over THIS?!”

That’s DARVO. By then I had learned how to spot it and call it out.

Wow the similarities just never cease to amaze me. You mention panic attack.

Roughly 1 month pre Dday WGF has a panic attack. Not an unusual event for her she’s suffered with heart palpitations since I’ve known her but definitely the 1st for a long time. I now know this was GUILT creeping up on her.

Roughly 2 weeks later so 2 weeks prior to Dday, I was in hyper vigilance by now, I had my own, my 1st ever, my heart just wouldn’t stop racing, I couldn’t sleep, I left the bed and took myself downstairs for an hour or 2. On return WGF asks what’s up with you. I say, I think I’ve just had a panic attack, her reply, why is it always about you, I don’t have time to worry about you too.....

How was Thanksgiving Thumos? Can’t imagine what that’s like in your family with everything you’ve been thru...