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Notaboringwife

Maybe said to convince himself that he is a good guy, maybe to convince the BS to give him a final chance. Maybe for all the reasons listed on this thread. etc ad nauseum.

What is more important to me, is how I perceive his efforts to be kind to me and our marriage.

He sees that I hold back on vulnerability. He remains insecure about this, yet I see his efforts in ‘loving’ our 48+ year marriage. I just happen to be in it and doing my best to enjoy our marriage.

Hadnt really thought about an ily being an attempt to assuage their own guilt. I dont doubt that this plays a part. To curry favor with the BS, sure, cya attempt.

The bolded quote resonates. Vulnerability is certainly one of the casualties of marital treason. Once assasinated, it is very very hard to resuscitate. I can say with 100% assurity that I never allowed even a majorative measure of vulnerabilty post betrayal. I know it was a huge issue. Can you say "shields up"?

ImaChump

I don’t believe my wife "intentionally" tried to hurt me through her cheating. It’s just I didn’t matter enough. She is extremely selfish. She deserved to be happy and cheating made her happy. She didn’t care that it would hurt me. All that mattered to her is the shitstorm that would ensue for HER if I caught her.

So how can you do that to someone you love? I sure couldn’t. But she isn’t me.

Intentionality is another can-o-worms for me. Another good thread topic could be "Intentionality v. Impulsiveness". The comment about selfishness is universally true imo. A selfish obsession on steroids to be fulfilled at all costs come hell or high water (both of which generally happen metaphorically at Dday and thereafter.

As an aside, I was stunned by the story you related. I know you described what you thought to yourself, but how did you actually respond? To hear that after a, self described, 20 year lta had to be incredibly difficult to process. Im sorry sir.

Just shows how deep narcissism can be rooted into the human soul.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 12:16 PM, Friday, November 1st]

In respect to vulnerability, I think that I am vulnerable. Isn't staying a sign of vulnerability in its own? I don't know. And since I feel that I am vulnerable for staying I don't hold anything back, I discuss everything, I think I am more vulnerable than before... Just yesterday he didn't sent a message to tell me that he was going to be late, and I initiated a huge fight (even though I knew that he has a deadline for today) because ptsd kicked in... For me, and as opposed to my former self, that is vulnerability. He knows that I care. I act like a teenager, something that prior to our relationship (that is 17 years ago) I had decided that I wouldn't do anymore.... I didn't want to be vulnerable. On the other hand he was vulnerable with me, and I think that at some point, he wanted this from me... Mind you, I am not vulnerable because he wants me to, it is what it is for now and I just don't hold back. I am hurt, and angry, and of course my way of thinking changed. I think the worse thing and when I do, I say it...

WB1340

Sorry you're in the thick of it Brother. Solidarity.

She has stated her undying love for me many many times but like others have said, words carry little weight anymore. Hopefully tonight we have time for her to answer my list of polygraph questions so maybe her answers will be 100% honest or maybe I will learn more.

I will never wrap my head around how a WS can say I never stopped loving you, yet do something that destroys the BS and the relationship

I wonder if she would believe me saying I love you were she to walk into the bedroom unannounced and see me in the middle of relations with some random female - no I would never do this

Some WS erroniously believe that increasing tbe number of ily's somehow increases the chances of R. In truth, due to the horrific damage and wildly changed state of mind of the BS, it actually does far more harm than good. To your point, it sounds insane. Wacko. Unhinged. They would do far more good to restrain themselves or at least acknowledge it with, "I want to tell you that I love you but I know how hollow and insane that would sound given my hateful actions."

Strength to you sir. Hope you get the answers you rightfully seek.

DT asked:

As an aside, I was stunned by the story you related. I know you described what you thought to yourself, but how did you actually respond? To hear that after a, self described, 20 year lta had to be incredibly difficult to process. Im sorry sir.

The way the process works is she answers the question and posts the update in the App and I get an email notification. I can then go in and read what she posts. Now, being the person she is, she usually asks me "did you read my story? What did you think"? But hasn’t (yet) for this one. I didn’t offer her feedback but if she asks, I will tell her how it made me feel.

We have had the "if you loved me, how could you do this" discussion MANY times. It’s always a circular conversation with lots of "I don’t knows" in it. The truth is, she even told me multiple times "I don’t think I love you anymore" while she was cheating. But this was ALWAYS after she had started an affair and I think there was some "justification after the fact" (she would sabotage the marriage to justify her cheating) to her saying that. We’ve also had the "I never knew what love was, my parents didn’t model love, I’ve never loved anyone, even my kids, etc." discussion. Based on all that, if I tell her my reaction to seeing that, she will devolve into a pile of sobbing mush and go lie in bed beating herself up for the rest of the day. But it STILL won’t stop her from saying the same thing again (or something equally triggering) in the future. It really doesn’t even "eat at me" anymore. I basically "have my moment" think to myself "FFS, she’s NEVER going to get it" and go on with my day. I wrote her a 25 page "Impact Letter" on all the ways her cheating has and is impacting me. There should be zero surprises about my triggers……

Also, just to clarify, it wasn’t a 20 year LTA. She was a serial cheater who had multiple affairs (LTAs, ONS (of a sort) and even one same sex) over the first 20 years of our marriage. So for me, the "how could you love me and do this" question is amplified. Because it was repeated behavior, with multiple people over many years across 3 states and 7 different jobs (all APs but one she met at work). She made cheating her "life’s work"….

[This message edited by ImaChump at 1:44 PM, Friday, November 1st]

SacredSoul33

Love is a verb. It's actions. It's not how I feel about you, it's about what I do to help you feel cherished and protected. So no, a WS in an affair is not loving their BS. Post affair, the best way that they can show their BS that they are loved is by taking action - learning, growing, giving.

I appreciate the I Cor 13 reference. I do. I agree with consistent action over time....as in years of time. I cannot speak expertly to this because my ww and I never got there. The issue was ultimately that we never were on the same page as to the definition of the term, evidenced by her unwillingness to embrace true remorse.

I wish you well.

Hikingout

Thank you for the deep dive into your experience as to the progression of affinity & love and its "mutation"(?...my take) in your relationship with your B/WH. I read it twice and found it to be illuminating. Truly.

A couple of things grabbed me.

So, did I love my husband? I don’t think I was capable of loving anyone, I was dead inside. I didn’t think about consequences because I didn’t care about what happened to me. I told myself I could protect him by not knowing. I told myself that maybe this would help me get back to myself and it would improve my relationship with him. I especially thought iit might help me sexually- I was experiencing like female impotence and stupid enough not to realize that was coming from emotional exhaustion. It was terrifying to me that I could not feel any pleasure at all sexually. (By the way this did not go away until well after my affair) All of this is insane, and I totally know that as I write it. But it’s truthful.

Though we were in a far different place in life as young spouses and parents, I do believe that my fww's inability to love herself, let alone anyone else, played a big part in her betrayal. Digging deeper still, if there is no percieved value in your own worth, where else is true value to be found? As to insanity, yeh, that goes both ways. I referenced to tilt a whirl and when it was all revealed to me I felt like I had taken a bottle of crazy pills. Ozzie's crazy train was something I listened to often when working out post Dday (still do from time to time).

In that vein of thought, then this...

Noone was getting my authenticity or vulnerability because there was none to get. You have to know yourself and who you are and what you want to have any of that. I focused on the superficial and it was like a drug. None of this was a statement about my husband, his worth, etc. I, of course, understand there is no other way to view it for him.

Thanks also for this. Its helpful. I think my fww was shocked that I took her betrayal so much to heart as to the hit to my self worth. Her inability to "get it" was a huge part of our R failure, possibly in large part due to her own sense of worthlessness due to internalized misery? (My educated guess).

Then this...

I learned that you must manage your life and your relationship and what putting in work means. Instead of exhausting myself, work means staying tuned in with him and myself, communicating, etc. It’s not serving him everything under the sun to earn his love and then upping that when you aren’t feeling the results.

If you respect yourself, then you can respect others. If you have boundaries, you can honor those of others. If you can love yourself, you have it to give.

This really got to me. Not in relation to my first marriage, but because the facet you describe is something I now experience in my current marriage (she too is a fbs). A sign of "coming into oneself"? Id like to think so.

As always, thanks for this Hikingout. Thanks for endeavoring to be generous & real. It shows.

Thanks also for this. Its helpful. I think my fww was shocked that I took her betrayal so much to heart as to the hit to my self worth. Her inability to "get it" was a huge part of our R failure, possibly in large part due to her own sense of worthlessness due to internalized misery? (My educated guess).

I think that is an excellent guess, likely true. It’s hard to face yourself, and to try to do it at the same time you are facing a devastated spouse is almost impossible. I understand how ws fail at this I really do because I failed a lot myself.

Phosphorescent

I want to thank you personally for contributing. Not only was your post not a thread jack, but a gritty reality check when it comes to wrestling with this penultimate subject. I got misty eyed and gut wrenched at the same time while reading this.

I am so sorry you are dealing with this mess. I have tremendous empathy for the feelings you have described (my wwf's ap was my erstwhile "best friend"). As you are only 2.5 years out from Dday, Im sure much of this is raw. FYI, we went 10 years and never truly R'd before it all ended.

Just want to say that I affirm this 100%:

I want good things for him. But above all, I want good things for myself and my kids, and because of the hard lesson that HE taught me, we come first. And that is undisputable. So, even though the old love died, you know, the one that at one point goes into autopilot mode, I m glad. I don't want it. I had suppressed my entire being to keep everybody happy. No. I have to be happy. If he's clever enough, he won't repeat the same thing. If he's not, well, good riddance.

I hope I didn't threadjacked, and please forgive any typos as English isn't my native language....

Strength, wisdom and clarity to you along with the healthy primacy of self-love.

sisoon

Thanks for this synopsis:

She told me she always loved me, and I responded that I didn't feel loved during and after her A. Our MC, who was W's IC before d-day (and therefore probably pre-disposed to take my W's side, although she never did), said she didn't see how W loved me all during and after d-day, either. She stopped saying it. I know she was trying to communicate something, but I didn't know what.

Bringing to light the fact that regardless of whether the ws meant much by mouthing the words during and after an A, the betrayed has a hard-to-impossible time receiving it, almost to the point of the heart's door being welded shut imo. Kudos to the MC for calling out the baselessness of the ww's "love claims" given the evidence to the exact opposite in her actions.

Question for you. When did she start affirming her love for you verbally again and when were you able to attach veracity to her claims?

You also said...

But what matters to BSes who are contemplating R is their WS's specific meaning(s).

So very very true. The devil (or the angel) is in the details.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 4:12 PM, Friday, November 1st]

OhItsYou

"I never stopped loving you" taken in the context being talked about here, is really no different than "I only hit you because I love you." Same absurdity.

In brief form, this is exactly why I started this thread. I desire more understanding. As I stated at the beginning, I may be windmill tilting, but I hope not.

Oldwounds, thanks for pitching in. Whenever I read your responses I have a profound sense of admiration mixed with melancholy. Admiration for what you and your fww have overcome and rebuilt. Melancholy over the vast cost of that overcoming and rebuilding. It sounds like you are in a good place 8 years after Dday. Gives me sense of hope.

This reflection seems very 20/20 to me....

Years of healing later, we’re finally at a level of mutual care now, but we don’t look back on the A and include ‘love’ as any part of it — she definitely didn’t love herself, the feelings for AP were all fantasy and clearly there was zero concern for how hurt I might be in all of it.

Thanks again.

On a quick break...

Had to reach out after this

Also, just to clarify, it wasn’t a 20 year LTA. She was a serial cheater who had multiple affairs (LTAs, ONS (of a sort) and even one same sex) over the first 20 years of our marriage. So for me, the "how could you love me and do this" question is amplified. Because it was repeated behavior, with multiple people over many years across 3 states and 7 different jobs (all APs but one she met at work). She made cheating her "life’s work"….

ImaChump, not sure what to say sir. This is......stunning to read. Cant imagine the depth of hurt and disillusionment. "Amplified" indeed. I read your story in your profile and at the end you characterize you progress as "losing hope of recovery" (not sure hiw you couldnt). Is this still the case.

I hope you can find healing and peace.

Thanks DT.

ImaChump, not sure what to say sir. This is......stunning to read. Cant imagine the depth of hurt and disillusionment. "Amplified" indeed. I read your story in your profile and at the end you characterize you progress as "losing hope of recovery" (not sure hiw you couldnt). Is this still the case.

I hope you can find healing and peace.

I haven’t updated the story in a while. That last update is over a year old just past the first Anniversary of DDay 1. It’s not in the story but I have posted in different threads that 8 months after DDay 1 my wife had a series of seizures and was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Surgery, radiation and chemotherapy ensued. I became her primary caretaker. Her treatments lasted 17 months and just ended in July. She is having periodic MRIs (had one this morning) and still has her chemo port in "just in case". Obviously, her health as it relates to this has been our prime concern. We were attempting "R" before her diagnosis and I would never be the asshole to abandon my wife (and burden my kids) during her cancer battle. There have been "fits and starts" during her cancer battle where she will "do the work" for a few weeks then stop and do nothing for weeks or months. She had been in IC since DDay (we had a disastrous attempt at MC much too soon after DDay). I decided to take the approach to let her work at her own pace. I had hoped once her cancer treatments were done, she would show a rededication to "doing the work". So far, that hasn’t been the case.

She was diagnosed with bipolar disorder literally a couple of weeks before the seizures. She had just started medication but there is a conflict with the anti-seizure medicine she is now on so she stopped taking it. She has changed ICs twice and since her last IC moved on (changed jobs and can no longer see her), she hasn’t pursued finding a new IC. When I asked her "what the plan is" she said she wasn’t going to continue IC "because it’s too painful for her".

So all of this is to say, yes, I’ve pretty much given up hope. She is who she is and I’m afraid that’s who she always will be. Not actively cheating but still has all the same character defects that allowed her to cheat IMO. She’s not "out of the woods" yet so that has to be taken into consideration. I’m retired and rely on her income (so as not to touch my accounts yet) and health insurance. I have substantial retirement accounts, investment accounts and properties. To me, it would be a stupid financial decision to divorce someone who may not even live until the case is settled. So now what? That’s my dilemma. Right now, I’m basically "dribbling out the clock".

This feel like a bit of a T/J but since it’s your thread, I suppose you can take it any direction you like. Feel free to PM me if you have additional questions.

My wayward is a sex/porn addict. Sober now, after 14 years of physical betrayal. He still maintains he loved me in his own way.

His therapist said that whilst in the addiction, love is not possible, your brain is hijacked by the acting out and dopamine hit.

He doesn't fully accept this yet. His foo story led him to behavior patterns that dealt w stress and anxiety. Those patterns included psychological abuse of me. He's working on getting it now, but the road is long and the outcome will probably be an anemic love at best.

No one, including waywards,want to feel they are evil. It is difficult to own their role as abusers.

Humans are always a work in progress. People who are actually evolving are doing it on different timelines.

Love is a reflection for me. I don't think I can reflect back a lot more love than I feel coming in. I don't think it's a good thing, to be such a mindless mirror, but perhaps it's a self preservation tactic unconsciously learned from years with a lying cheating WH.

If cheating is the antithesis of love, I can only imagine that actions to the contrary would be analogous to love.

I think to successfully reconcile, the cheater must eclipse their acts of betrayal with whatever ratio is required, 3:1, 5:1, 10:1-whatever it takes. Dilution is the solution. Lavage the acts of betrayal away with copious ACTS of love, actions to protect, actions to self improve, and sacrifice. Actions not just words.

I believe an impressive portion of action is what is required to transcend infidelity, to leave a deeper impression of love.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 9:48 PM, Friday, November 1st]

His therapist said that whilst in the addiction, love is not possible, your brain is hijacked by the acting out and dopamine hit.

I have never heard this before but it absolutely rings true to me.

I loved my husband before my affair, and after a lot of work to rewire my brain away from that addiction, I love him more fully today. But I don’t believe I was capable of love in the year before or after my affair. I was too consumed with pain, then addiction, and then unwinding all that.

Dilution is the solution. Lavage the acts of betrayal away with copious ACTS of love, actions to protect, actions to self improve, and sacrifice. Actions not just words. I believe an impressive portion of action is what is required to transcend infidelity.

This seems true to me as well, but also a lot of self work and often that includes a bs. Being Chet was on is an huge trauma, and if the person also has unresolved past trauma on top of it I think it can combine and I don’t think the average person is always equipped for that.

DT wrote

I got a version of this years ago and have tried to wrap my noodle around it ever since, to little avail.

I think the problem starts with the belief that humans are basically rational and consistent in their beliefs. They’re not. There are infinite studies proving it.

We’re are perfectly capable of holding conflicting beliefs in your heads, because we hold them one at a time. Love the spouse? Sure. Want this other thing? Sure. Not at the same time, though. That wouldn’t make sense.

If you are open to it, you can see it all the time. Might even see it in yourself.

The crooked timber of humanity…

ImaChump

So all of this is to say, yes, I’ve pretty much given up hope. She is who she is and I’m afraid that’s who she always will be. 

With serial cheating, bipolar disorder and a cancer battle, you've taken some very serious hits. Sorry you're enduring all of this. Sometimes life just piles on.

gray54

My wayward is a sex/porn addict. Sober now, after 14 years of physical betrayal. He still maintains he loved me in his own way.

Ive worked with addicts in the past and neuro-chemistry is an extremely potent factor. Addictions dealing with otherwise normal body functions (sex, eating) are particularly intractible. Addictions consume all of the oxygen in the room and leave little to no space for a healthy loving relationship. Addicts are also entrenched deflectors and blame-shifters in my experience.

I hope you continue to find a way forward through this morasse. If he has strung some years of sobriety together, he is ahead of thd curve.

HoP

I think the problem starts with the belief that humans are basically rational and consistent in their beliefs. They’re not. There are infinite studies proving it.

We’re are perfectly capable of holding conflicting beliefs in your heads, because we hold them one at a time. Love the spouse? Sure. Want this other thing? Sure. Not at the same time, though. That wouldn’t make sense.

If you are open to it, you can see it all the time. Might even see it in yourself.

The crooked timber of humanity…

Ya know, I consider myself an optimistic realist. I am tempted to buy into your assessment but I cant adopt it fully. The reason is that for many, including myself, when faced with temptation to betray, I/we turn away. Why? The answer is involved but pretty straight forward. Inner resolve, moral/ethical conviction, positive AND negative examples taken to heart, all combine like rebar in the disciplined and developed concrete-of-character...even in that "crooked timber of (my) humanity." I will say Ive become a bit more tinged with pessimism than before (you might characterize it as realism).

This did get me thinking more critically about this in relation to my claim of love for my fww, which is that what I described above was a part of my inner definition of that term. For her, that piece was missing (or maybe just thrown out the window circumstatially), but based on her actions post Dday, I dont think it was ever there.

Thanks for prompting the thought.

Ya know, I consider myself an optimistic realist. I am tempted to buy into your assessment but I cant adopt it fully. The reason is that for many, including myself, when faced with temptation to betray, I/we turn away.

Yeah, it’s not an absolution. Plenty of people don’t give in, or even feel the urge (much). It’s just an explanation to help understand.

You can see it in other areas. For example, America has way, way more people who are significantly overweight than other countries. People that are literally killing themselves early, and making their lives filled with more suffering on the way. My cousin, great guy, two hip replacements and heart bypass, continual back pain, constant suffering. What portion of them want to be overweight? How many billions of dollars spent on dieting? And yet every single calorie is put in their mouth by their own hand. Say one thing, do the other. Seems irrational, no?

Theres a fascinating book called The Mind is Flat that is worth reading. Based on many empirical experiments showing our bounded rationality, and how we think things work in the brain isn’t really true. You can read summaries of the book on line.

How Emotions Are Made is another good one. Again, summaries online.

I didn’t ask to get cheated on, but if you are open to setting aside your suffering every now and then and just watch the WS and yourself (literally, your Self) there’s a lot to be learned about yourself and others.

Hey DT,

Can you clarify something for me?

This did get me thinking more critically about this in relation to my claim of love for my fww, which is that what I described above was a part of my inner definition of that term. For her, that piece was missing (or maybe just thrown out the window circumstatially), but based on her actions post Dday, I dont think it was ever there.

On this site, the acronym "fww" typically refers to a successfully reconciled wife who betrayed. However, you reference a failed R. On the other hand, it seems "xww" seems to be the term coined here to refer to a betraying wife who has now been divorced.

Which is your case?

gr8ful

On this site, the acronym "fww" typically refers to a successfully reconciled wife who betrayed. However, you reference a failed R. On the other hand, it seems "xww" seems to be the term coined here to refer to a betraying wife who has now been divorced.

Which is your case?l

Thanks for clarifying....just shows that Im relatively new here. What I meant by that shorthand was "former wayward wife". Ill try to be more clear in the future.

HoP

I take your point. I do, and there is a lot of validity to it but it is not universal (far from it thank god). I appreciate your argument, but have gone as far as I can on that topic.

To that point, there is a quote in my signature line from another former betrayed spouse whose ww is generally accepted to have posted here. He apparently said something to her post betrayal and divorce that really set her off to the effect of "if your kind (cheating/betraying) kind would just stay together and stay away from my kind (faithful/loyal), the world would be a lot better place." It made me chuckle in a very dark way. I know it is a somewhat gross generalization and Im sure it was meant as a bit of payback (she was clearly never remorseful and her post made my blood run cold), but there is a kernel of truth there still.

Thus far, all evidence is that I am now with a woman of my "tribe" if you will, and she firmly believes the same of me.

I am thankful.

Disclaimer: I in no way am disparaging the remorseful and transformed/transforming former waywards for whom I have great respect. Having said that, I consider them to be tbe vast exception, not the rule and as such, they are breakthrough individuals imb.

Nuf said.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 4:40 PM, Saturday, November 2nd]